Canter vs Trot Half Pass, Iberian worker-bee type

[lorilu]

@Amberley

If he’s offering canter he’s not in a forward connected trot.

Yes, forwardness is an issue, and it has nothing to do with rein length. He would much rather go very collected with a tight rein. Relaxation and forward intent is worked on all the time. He is MUCH improved over the last few months but he will back off in an instant. I know I am not always quick enough to prevent it.

@cnm161 that sounds like a good exercise. Right now we are doing a lot of SF— try a bit sideways… then sf straight ahead, etc. And I do post the trot, often…

@merrygoround

Once that is established, you can play with H/I on the diagonal, or come around the corner in S/I , maintain the bend and start moving your hips diagonally across the arena, if you lose bend, go into a 10m circle and try again.Correct bend is a must!

And that’s when I get the canter.

[lorilu]

So this has been a good week. I am trying out a new supplement that isnt so much a calmer as something that works on his inherent tension. It seems to be working.
He is much less tense, and less “what’s next???” .
And using SI - LY out – HP sequences, we are getting a few sideways steps with some bend.
thanks for your continuing suggestions!

[Feathered_Feet]

I’ve been skimming through the replies, so this may have been mentioned already, but

1. truly, how confirmed is the haunches in? Be honest Everyone always says HP is just HI on a diagonal, which is just not true, but they are close enough that I think it’s an absolute prerequisite. Until your HI is confirmed - on the long side, on a circle, haunches in and haunches out, etc., SI to renvers on the long side and on a circle… don’t even think about HP. You need to be able to bend this horse inside out anywhere in the arena. Once all those lateral aids are crystal clear, then think about HP. Do all this at the walk, then at the trot. Once that’s confirmed (and this could take weeks), try the trot HP.

2. How is your walk leg-yield-to-half-pass? Can you do the entire diagonal switching seamlessly from leg yield to half pass, back to leg yield, back to half pass, every few strides? The legs don’t change, just the bend. Then do that in the trot. And just do that for a few minutes - let the horse cognitively understand “now we’re just doing LY to HP to LY to HP on the diagonals.” Don’t confuse him by mixing in other requests. Take away any element of “what is she asking for.”

3. How’s the canter half pass? If he’s so keen to canter, then maybe that’s your “in”.

4. Does the horse break into the canter at other times? If so, this is not a HP issue, but a trot/canter issue, and you have to address those two different cues, and perhaps start highlighting to your horse how they are different.

[rosinante]

@lorilu

Yes, forwardness is an issue, and it has nothing to do with rein length. He would much rather go very collected with a tight rein. Relaxation and forward intent is worked on all the time. He is MUCH improved over the last few months but he will back off in an instant. I know I am not always quick enough to prevent it.

This is a sign of tension on your part. See if you are loose in the saddle. Is your leg just hanging? Or are you subconsciously gripping? Is your thigh loose so someone could pull your leg away from the saddle? Do some reflection on whether you are holding tension…mental or physical.

[sascha]

@Feathered_Feet

Everyone always says HP is just HI on a diagonal, which is just not true,

It is absolutely 100% true. Why make something harder by saying it’s some magical thing that is totally different than something it is totally the same as? People no longer reading books and studying actual theory is how this nonsense gets perpetuated.

Dressage is already hard enough. Why make it harder?

[Feathered_Feet]

In haunches in the front legs do not cross - they travel on the same track as if the horse were straight.
In half pass the front legs cross.

What am I missing?

Also no one brought magic into the discussion other than you. Not sure why you have to be hyperbolic about it.

[merrygoround]

It sounds like you are using too strong an outside leg, and also your body must stay in trot rhythm. Keep your weight on inside seat bone, but do NOT lift your hips in conjunction with your outside bend supporting leg, which must stay as steady as it was in H/I.

[sascha]

@Feathered_Feet

In haunches in the front legs do not cross - they travel on the same track as if the horse were straight.
In half pass the front legs cross.

Where are you standing to deem this crossing not crossing visual. If you are standing at the end of the diagonal line that a half pass is being performed on, you would also not see the front legs crossing. Likewise, if you stand at the correct angle while travers is being performed, you will indeed see the legs crossing.

Seriously, read some of the older dressage books. Do some crazy things like standing at the end of the diagonal line a half pass is being performed on.

[sascha]

I can’t be bothered to go through books - btdt on a similar thread many, many years ago, so here’s a lovely video of a modern rider explaining and demonstrating. She may be right when she calls it a “secret.” It shouldn’t be, but apparently it is

The Half Pass: A Simple Trick

[Arlomine]

Not true. It depends on where you are observing from. If you were Standing exactly at the point where the horse will arrive at the rail, the front legs are not crossing. They are tracking straight on that diagonal line. It will look like crossing if you are observing from any of the judges points, and you can certainly get a sense of how much bend the horse has by how much they appear to be crossing from those places… But this one is worth setting yourself down at the point of arrival and really watching. This was explained to me by a long time judge by the way

[Arlomine]

Exactly

[Feathered_Feet]

I see what @Arlomine and @Sascha are saying, and it makes sense academically. But if you look - from either perspective around the arena - in the real world, the horses’ knees generally come closer together during half pass than during haunches in (and I’m including correct, well-scoring half-passes).

Perhaps it’s a difference between what is theoretically described as the standard in the literature (where the front legs are supposed to travel straight) versus what happens in the real world. But lots of well scoring, nicely performed half passes show the front legs abducting and adducting, versus haunches in where the front legs just travel straight.

That being said, thanks for sharing your (clearly very common perspective). It’s just not reflective of what happens in the real world. (And I’m not going to debate you on it )

[Arlomine]

I get what you’re describing. I believe that it suggests a lack of bend in the rib cage.
And there’s certainly so many hyper mobile horses being presented these days that certain things are possible with them that you just didn’t see it before.

[sascha]

@Feathered_Feet

he horses’ knees generally come closer together during half pass than during haunches in

That depends on the angle/amount of bend. A higher degree of bend and a steeper angle will increase the optical illusion that you are convinced is a difference between 2 things that are the same.

The front legs in HI (done correctly) absolutely adduct and abduct - they have to because the bend is through the entire body, just like in half pass. We ask the front legs to travel on the same line as though they were continuing to go straight (down the long side or on the diagonal), but they cannot unless the bend comes only through the hips of the horse which is absolutely incorrect.

It’s not a perspective. It’s fact.

I just feel so bad for so many people who just want to do the sport that have been dragged down with wrong theory into making things more difficult for themselves and their horses

[blue_heron]

@sascha

I just feel so bad for so many people who just want to do the sport that have been dragged down with wrong theory into making things more difficult for themselves and their horses

Oh for the love of Pete

So we’re going to refute breaking down the aids because we’re focused on the The Feel, but if someone says that thinking about half pass as haunches in on the diagonal (yes, it is) doesn’t work for them, they’re so terribly uneducated on theory that they’re doing a detriment to themselves and the horse. You have no idea how many hours someone has spent reading Charles de Kunffy. It is possible to ask for and get a correct half pass without thinking that half pass is just haunches in on the diagonal. More than one way to crack an egg.

[sascha]

@blue_heron

if someone says that thinking about half pass as haunches in on the diagonal (yes, it is) doesn’t work for them, they’re so terribly uneducated on theory that they’re doing a detriment to themselves and the horse.

Nope. You’re a few posts behind. The whole nonsense of legs not crossing in travers and crossing in HP being the difference between the 2 movements is what I was speaking to with that posts. And yes, it makes me super sad that people are making it way harder than it has to be. It has nothing to do with the way someone learns or approaches the exercises. It has everything to do with making stuff up that just isn’t true.

[theresak]

@sascha

That depends on the angle/amount of bend. A higher degree of bend and a steeper angle will increase the optical illusion that you are convinced is a difference between 2 things that are the same.

The steepness of the GP HP would not be the same as the degree of angle and bend needed to accomplish a HI on the diagonal, and I think that’s what @Feathered_Feet and I are thinking as the end goal.

Perhaps a good way to start working on the half pass is to think HI on the diagonal, but I will admit that visual and trying the exercise never worked for me and I have put HP on multiple horses and my one trained through the upper levels. I visualize starting a SI down the rail and just taking that sideways, or the LY + change the bend.

[sascha]

@theresak

The steepness of the GP HP would not be the same as the degree of angle and bend needed to accomplish a HI on the diagonal, and I think that’s what @Feathered_Feet and I are thinking as the end goal.

You can absolutely do HI on the wall in that degree of bend and angle!

[Feathered_Feet]

@sascha

The front legs in HI (done correctly) absolutely adduct and abduct - they have to because the bend is through the entire body, just like in half pass. We ask the front legs to travel on the same line as though they were continuing to go straight (down the long side or on the diagonal), but they cannot unless the bend comes only through the hips of the horse which is absolutely incorrect.

Maybe this is where I get stuck because this is absolutely not how I was trained. I was trained (by multiple trainers) that the shoulders and front legs and neck stay absolutely straight during HI, that this an isolated haunches supplying exercise. If you look at the mirror at the end of the line (i.e., when coming down the long side), there should be no change to the neck, shoulders, and forelegs between traveling straight and HI. By this standard, there is no adduction or abduction of the front legs.

So maybe that’s how you and I end up with different lived experiences. Though this is also consistent with what I see all over the place so I don’t think it’s just me. So by your standard, people are teaching incorrect haunches in all over the place. Which is also consistent with what I’ve seen about teaching dressage in general.

Although I can’t say I’m too worried about it - I tend to score 7s & 8s on my lateral work (although can’t remember when the last time was I had to show haunches in) so I think I’m doing ok.

[dotneko]

Half pass | Straightness Training