thx. I am finding this is def. part of it… and outside leg too far back.
Eg., you are doing “too much” for what this horse needs. Try doing more “nothing.”
Sascha, I usually agree with you, but the rider in that video isn’t riding very good HI or HP. The camera appears set up on the centerline at a short side. Coming down the long side, she appears to have little to no HI. Her second HP entirely lacks bend.
That aside, she is correct insofar as if you don’t have a good HI installed, HP will be difficult to say the least.
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In the rider’s defense, I think her video was about introducing the half pass? So maybe this is not the most educated horse? But it would have been helpful for her to explain what is good/bad about what she is getting from the horse.
This is, to me, a good example of why thinking about HI/HP as two different movements with two different objectives. The reach in the shoulder in this video is acceptable for HI, but needs much more flexibility and reach in the HP.
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With my lusi I really had to concentrate on getting haunches in without him dropping his shoulder or poll, and really concentrating on being super light and giving with the contact and maintaining rhythm (keeping a slow trot beat is always a thing for us - my guy wants to be quick quick quick). I’d work on travers as above, keeping the travers feeling into 10 m circles, and then working them on the diagonal for half pass.
We just did PSG (first for both of us, woohoo!!) and several 7s on our lateral work, including HP. That is huge progress - increasing his strength and self-carriage is ongoing but training HP does help.
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Just adding this because it came up the other day when I was talking to someone IRL. Sometimes we want to force things or make certain shapes (as in make the horses body into a certain shape) when on the horse, and this in turn blocks them and creates tension. We basically “try too hard” if you will. I’ve seen this, and have been guilty of this ages ago, and it just goes back to body awareness of both horse and rider. Are you blocking them? Is one aid overwhelming them in the movement? Are you allowing the proper movement?
Some people also learn when watching videos too, so having someone video your half passes from various angles, may help you see something that you haven’t felt or don’t realize and help you become more conscious of wherever that thing is. Whether it’s a leg too far back, the position of a hand, or a tight hip.
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Another thing that I don’t think has been mentioned, is doing lots of turns on the forehand. This gets the horse to understand moving the hindquarters away from your leg, without him moving anything else. When he’s good at that, you then put him in a halt on the long side and ask for those haunches to come in, like a partial turn on the FH. Then close your inside leg, maintaining the HI positioning, and ask him to walk forward. He’ll probably try to straighten himself, so keeping that outside leg on is key. When he can do this easily at a walk, begin to practice it at a trot. Then, when the HI is confirmed, you should be able to re-introduce HP without the urge to canter.
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If the horse is offering canter, the horse is telling the rider that her aids are not clear.
The rider needs to be very clear on what are the aids for canter vs aids for HI/HP. When that is clear, the horse will not offer canter.
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This is probably true on average. But horses aren’t robots, and carry their own training history or tension into the equation. A horse that has been rewarded for canter may offer canter even in the presence of very clear aids, especially if they are also stressed by the actual request. E.g. piaffe steps turning into canter.
Training is about knowing when to give grace for the right intentions (like the horse trying hard but offering the “wrong” response) versus when to insist.
As with everything, this isn’t a black and white problem. Shades of grey/situational dependency.
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I agree it is a miscommunication, but two points - 1. I ahve done HP on a few horses, without this issue (in fact I have my Silver…); and 2. It has come up with three trainers who have sat on him. Two have their Gold and are well established trainers (and judges), and are well acquainted with Iberian and baroque-type horses; the third is a young GP rider who has brought a few horses up to FEI levels and GP
Kind of doubt all four of us are using unclear aids…
That’s a good point.
I think that he genuinely might not understand. It took my last one a minute to grasp the concept of half pass initially.
How does to work when you do a shoulder in down the center line and then ask for a few steps of half pass, and then back to shoulder in? Or when you ask for just a tiny bit of haunches in and slowly build to more (haunches more in, and more bend)?
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Agreed. And it doesn’t change anything I wrote. The rider needs to listen to the horse. The horse will tell the rider if he knows different cues for canter.
Eggsactly…the rider needs to have FEEL.
If you think it is miscommunication, then the trainer/rider’s job is to figure out what the horse is saying.
If the other 4 riders have gotten to GP on warmbloods…then yes, absolutely all 4 can be giving unclear (ie, too strong) aids.
Well acquainted with “baroque” horses is relative since it is only recently that they became the breed du jour. How long have these “trainers” been riding iberian horses?
About 40 years ago I took lessons with Dorita Konyot Humphries (Tina Konyot’s aunt) on her Andalusian stallion. She was the trainer for Ringling Bros. Until recently iberian horses were considered “little circus horses” and derided for that by the competition dressage people.
I speak from personal experience as 20+ years ago competitive dressage people said my Lusitano stallion was such a “cute pony.” That was the horse of a lifetime. Unfortunately EPM derailed our journey.
*** Edited to add I’m having flashbacks… what I recall from my lessons with Dorita was that I was collapsing in the hips and would not be able to give proper aids unless I learned to sit straight in the saddle. I find it rare these days that trainers focus on rider position.
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Well, one was head trainer at Medieval Times here in Florida and has been riding Iberians for about 30-40 years. I have a feeling you know him… The other, for about 7 years. And both would be offended by your use of “quote marks” - both are well respected, as I said, and both are also judges.
You would be surprised at the depth of “Iberian horses” knowledge here in NC Florida.
And yes, my first Iberian was an Andalusian who moved like a warmblood. I NEVER presented him as an Iberian with a french braid - always traditional braids. We did well, but changes did not seem possible to him due to prior “training”. He now has them, about 6 years later, with his new owner’s trainer.
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Matt McLaughlin? Bruno Gonzales? Peter van Borst? Heather Bender? I am familiar with the horse scene in Florida…I also took lessons with Alex Konyot, Tina’s father. Maybe you can look up Tina Konyot. She is based in Palm City, FL.
I don’t doubt you have many accomplishments…but as Podhajksi said…“My horses, my teachers.” I’m just saying to listen to the horses…and to have self-awareness.
There is a reason that the SRS starts their eleves on the lunge line.
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Good lord you can’t give me a modicum of credit can you. Of course I know who Tina K is.
Arrogant
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Who is arrogant? I just suggested you contact Tina.
I gave you credit. Perhaps listening/reading for understanding what the other side is saying would be a good place to start…for both people and horses
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Can I ask what the significance of this is? Or why?
Obviously to go in “camouflage” and not be too obvious that the horse was a “non-warmblood” breed.
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Yeah, I just wasn’t sure why it was in this conversation, but that makes sense. I wondered if it was to “fit in” but I did not want to assume.
Although I’ve definitely experienced bias against my PRE’s, I’m still proud of them and will either do a neat running braid of sorts or scallop braids (which look more traditional, but I happen to like them). Maybe I just don’t have enough competitive spirit, but we’ve received placements nonetheless. I’ve had to endure stupid comments such as, “Baroque horses have no place in this sport” but meh, at the end of the day it’s about the horse for me, not the idiots 
