[QUOTE=alicen;7105983]
But you didn’t address my queston about the sympathetic aspects to my posted CH quote.[/QUOTE]
Eh… what’s sympathy got to do with it? I bet the CEO of McD feels bad that folks “don’t make better choices.”
[QUOTE=Isabeau Z Solace;7106034]
Eh… what’s sympathy got to do with it? I bet the CEO of McD feels bad that folks “don’t make better choices.”[/QUOTE]
Some posters here are taking umbrage to being called snails. I don’t see that in that sentence.
[QUOTE=mbm;7105970]
people are leaving because we lack GOOD TRAINERS that can teach the basics… so folks end up not progressing… aka moving at the pace of a garden snail.
you folks are really really amazing! you have someone voicing loud and clear what is wrong with dressage (ie why ammies don’t progress as they should) and you eat the person alive.
i wonder how many pros will ever speak up in your defense again?[/QUOTE]
Well… in my area, there is everyone and God. You can clinic with Buck Brannaman, or take a lesson every month April-October with one of ‘his’ trainers. OR… you can ride with an Olympian, just pick one. You can’t spit without hitting one around here.
BUT… You will not find most folks taking a clinic with Mary Wanless, Charles DK, one of Buck’s people, etc. You will NOT find them seeking out instructors who challenge them. You will find them seeking out trainers with spiffy competition records, fancy horses, and MONDO, GINORMOUS, O LORDY OH MY, HOW DID IT GET SO LARGE EGOs. Flash, a foreign accent, and a perpetually uplifted nose are also successful marketing features…
We do NOT lack good trainers. We lack people who will seek them out. Henceforth these ‘good trainers’ are not well supported, do not flourish greatly, and do not produce many good students.
You have to look in the direction OPPOSITE the show grounds to find most of them. You have to be willing to be made uncomfortable. And then, to critically evaluate what you are being taught, and walk away from it if it sucks.
Where is the Facebook rant ?
[QUOTE=Isabeau Z Solace;7106043]
BUT… You will not find most folks taking a clinic with Mary Wanless, Charles DK, one of Buck’s people, etc. You will NOT find them seeking out instructors who challenge them. You will find them seeking out trainers with spiffy competition records, fancy horses, and MONDO, GINORMOUS, O LORDY OH MY, HOW DID IT GET SO LARGE EGOs. Flash, a foreign accent, and a perpetually uplifted nose are also successful marketing features…
We do NOT lack good trainers. We lack people who will seek them out. Henceforth these ‘good trainers’ are not well supported, do not flourish greatly, and do not produce many good students.
You have to look in the direction OPPOSITE the show grounds to find most of them. You have to be willing to be made uncomfortable. And then, to critically evaluate what you are being taught, and walk away from it if it sucks.[/QUOTE]
Since anyone can proclaim themselves a trainer, show records are pretty much the only objective criteria. If you go away from the show arena, you can find a variety of “classical French, or whatever” and some good trainers that no longer show. One has no way to evaluate them, unless you show and the judges tell you your training is incorrect or you never progress up the levels.
Theresa
[QUOTE=Isabeau Z Solace;7106043]
Well… in my area, there is everyone and God. You can clinic with Buck Brannaman, or take a lesson every month April-October with one of ‘his’ trainers. OR… you can ride with an Olympian, just pick one. You can’t spit without hitting one around here.
BUT… You will not find most folks taking a clinic with Mary Wanless, Charles DK, one of Buck’s people, etc. You will NOT find them seeking out instructors who challenge them. You will find them seeking out trainers with spiffy competition records, fancy horses, and MONDO, GINORMOUS, O LORDY OH MY, HOW DID IT GET SO LARGE EGOs. Flash, a foreign accent, and a perpetually uplifted nose are also successful marketing features…
We do NOT lack good trainers. We lack people who will seek them out. Henceforth these ‘good trainers’ are not well supported, do not flourish greatly, and do not produce many good students.
You have to look in the direction OPPOSITE the show grounds to find most of them. You have to be willing to be made uncomfortable. And then, to critically evaluate what you are being taught, and walk away from it if it sucks.[/QUOTE]
It goes along with all the Parelli and Clinton Anderson. A lot of riders seem to want to read a book or watch a DVD to become an expert, and boy do they believe they are one after watching said videos. I can’t tell you how many times I see the blind leading the visually challenged just because one if them watched one if those trainers and has convinced the other they are an expert. Never mind the fact that their horse crawls around the ring and the “expert” still can’t sit it. Or the fact that they rarely ride and are afraid of their horse.
True riding takes time, commitment and skill. Oh, and let’s not forget good instruction, which truly is in short supply in all areas of this country.
Maybe there is something to be said about finding a nice middle ground 
I have seen a lot of people make something out of less hours, time, fitness, and even horse flesh then you are putting forward as the standard, but it sure does make things easier.
I have said it a hundred times and Ill say it again. The furthest I have seen anyone go WITHOUT exactly everything that you listed was while working intimately (regular lessons) with very good trainers. Trainers proven to make riders, and to make horses, and to make riders who make horses. With their help Ive seen people find inexpensive horses, get fit but maybe not dressage Barbie doll svelte, and ride upper level dressage with success.
But in order to make these riders, we need someone to make these trainers, and if we don’t suppose it is CH to do it, it doesn’t matter because still we should hear that it needs to be done.
[QUOTE=NOMIOMI1;7106149]
Maybe there is something to be said about finding a nice middle ground
I have seen a lot of people make something out of less hours, time, fitness, and even horse flesh then you are putting forward as the standard, but it sure does make things easier.
I have said it a hundred times and Ill say it again. The furthest I have seen anyone go WITHOUT exactly everything that you listed was while working intimately (regular lessons) with very good trainers. Trainers proven to make riders, and to make horses, and to make riders who make horses. With their help Ive seen people find inexpensive horses, get fit but maybe not dressage Barbie doll svelte, and ride upper level dressage with success.
But in order to make these riders, we need someone to make these trainers, and if we don’t suppose it is CH to do it, it doesn’t matter because still we should hear that it needs to be done.[/QUOTE]
YES! Your third paragraph totally nailed it! :yes: But those people all put their butts in the tack and RIDE!
[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7106077]
Where is the Facebook rant ?[/QUOTE]
Oh Snicklefritz you’d hate it everyone is agreeing with her:lol::lol::lol:
We’ve seen this type of behavior before. Rider trains in europe, has some success, comes back full of importance and thinks all USA riders should just fall at their feet. They have all the answers.
Lisa W pulled this when she first came back, but it changed when it didn’t go according to her “plan” for herself. Now she seems to teach everyone with a smile on her face. CHS could take a few lessons from her and learn from LW’s mistakes. It’s called ‘work’ for a reason.
IMHO CHS’ riding resume doesn’t have the depth to back up her mouth and ego. She’s trained with some folks who are decidedly viewed as left of center over there, she hasn’t ridden in a WEG or Olympics, she whined considerably and threatened to sue USEF when she didn’t get on the WEG team as a starting rider and she hasn’t trained any students with any appreciable success.
She’s quite known as a bully in the HP circles. She also uses her clinics to push her saddles and tells riders all their faults can be cured if they will buy one of her saddles.
From where I sit - there are a whole lot more humble, better trained, better riders, better teachers to give my money to.
To take people’s hard earned money and then B**ch about them behind their back in a public forum - is INEXCUSEABLE. And then to try to back peddle and say “I’m just trying to improve dressage in American that’s why I wrote this” is delusional. No wonder she doesn’t have a sponsor. Who’s gonna line up to give this chick money?
Actually she was the alternate for WEG on her young 10 year old that she trained to GP. She never threatened to sue USEF…How is she bitching behind their back when she’s stating things publically.
[QUOTE=honeylips;7106163]
We’ve seen this type of behavior before. Rider trains in europe, has some success, comes back full of importance and thinks all USA riders should just fall at their feet. They have all the answers.
Lisa W pulled this when she first came back, but it changed when it didn’t go according to her “plan” for herself. Now she seems to teach everyone with a smile on her face. CHS could take a few lessons from her and learn from LW’s mistakes. It’s called ‘work’ for a reason.
IMHO CHS’ riding resume doesn’t have the depth to back up her mouth and ego. She’s trained with some folks who are decidedly viewed as left of center over there, she hasn’t ridden in a WEG or Olympics, she whined considerably and threatened to sue USEF when she didn’t get on the WEG team and she hasn’t trained any students with any appreciable success.
She’s quite known as a bully in the HP circles. She also uses her clinics to push her saddles and tells riders all their faults can be cured if they will buy one of her saddles.
From where I sit - there are a whole lot more humble, better trained, better riders, better teachers to give my money to.
To take people’s hard earned money and then B**ch about them behind their back in a public forum - is INEXCUSEABLE. And then to try to back peddle and say “I’m just trying to improve dressage in American that’s why I wrote this” is delusional. No wonder she doesn’t have a sponsor. Who’s gonna line up to give this chick money?[/QUOTE]
I haven’t posted in this thread because I couldn’t verbalize my thoughts, but you just did.
I agree with Haddad’s sentiment that we need a better system of trainers in the US. There ARE a lot of perpetual intro level riders out there because they get poor coaching, HOWEVER, the way in which she makes this point, and then goes on to “dis” the riders who have wasted the precious time she should be using to develop GP horses, is ridiculous and insulting.
If her real talent is in developing GP horses, how come she hasn’t produced more, or had any significant success with any of them internationally?
There is no way this woman could obtain and keep sponsorships with her piss-poor ability to communicate and total lack of professionalism.
Honestly, as a lower level rider I read her blog with some embarrassment. I have thought about how much I would love to get to clinic with a BNT and perhaps that would help me make some big strides. I shrunk back into my chair at the thought that in their head I was wasting their time, with the money that is anything but easy to come by for me.
I remember as a kid going to a Bruce Davidson clinic when he was on every Olympic team and there were many groups through the day, from kids on ponies to beginner, intermediate, and advanced groups. He gave full attention to all of them, and I really doubt he thought the 10 year olds jumping logs or the middle-aged riders in the beginner group were wasting his time.
[QUOTE=CrowneDragon;7106171]
I haven’t posted in this thread because I couldn’t verbalize my thoughts, but you just did.
I agree with Haddad’s sentiment that we need a better system of trainers in the US. There ARE a lot of perpetual intro level riders out there because they get poor coaching, HOWEVER, the way in which she makes this point, and then goes on to “dis” the riders who have wasted the precious time she should be using to develop GP horses, is ridiculous and insulting.
If her real talent is in developing GP horses, how come she hasn’t produced more, or had any significant success with any of them internationally?
There is no way this woman could obtain and keep sponsorships with her piss-poor ability to communicate and total lack of professionalism.
Honestly, as a lower level rider I read her blog with some embarrassment. I have thought about how much I would love to get to clinic with a BNT and perhaps that would help me make some big strides. I shrunk back into my chair at the thought that in their head I was wasting their time, with the money that is anything but easy to come by for me.
I remember as a kid going to a Bruce Davidson clinic when he was on every Olympic team and there were many groups through the day, from kids on ponies to beginner, intermediate, and advanced groups. He gave full attention to all of them, and I really doubt he thought the 10 year olds jumping logs or the middle-aged riders in the beginner group were wasting his time.[/QUOTE]
Can you sit the trot and do you know how to hold the reins?
I do agree her delivery could have been better.
[QUOTE=CrowneDragon;7106171]
I haven’t posted in this thread because I couldn’t verbalize my thoughts, but you just did.
I agree with Haddad’s sentiment that we need a better system of trainers in the US. There ARE a lot of perpetual intro level riders out there because they get poor coaching, HOWEVER, the way in which she makes this point, and then goes on to “dis” the riders who have wasted the precious time she should be using to develop GP horses, is ridiculous and insulting.
If her real talent is in developing GP horses, how come she hasn’t produced more, or had any significant success with any of them internationally?
There is no way this woman could obtain and keep sponsorships with her piss-poor ability to communicate and total lack of professionalism.
Honestly, as a lower level rider I read her blog with some embarrassment. I have thought about how much I would love to get to clinic with a BNT and perhaps that would help me make some big strides. I shrunk back into my chair at the thought that in their head I was wasting their time, with the money that is anything but easy to come by for me.
I remember as a kid going to a Bruce Davidson clinic when he was on every Olympic team and there were many groups through the day, from kids on ponies to beginner, intermediate, and advanced groups. He gave full attention to all of them, and I really doubt he thought the 10 year olds jumping logs or the middle-aged riders in the beginner group were wasting his time.[/QUOTE]
I suspect that there are very, very few people who would argue that having more and better training for amateurs in the US would be a good thing But I completely agree with you that someone (CH) who takes peoples’ money and then complains so bitterly about what a waste of her time it is to teach them is not only ridiculous and insulting, but frankly not all that bright. As you say, no wonder she has no sponsors.
I mean, really… if the message CHS wanted to send was simply, “we need more and better trainers in this country,” then obviously that sentiment would be far better expressed in a much more sympathetic way. For instance, she could have written, “My heart goes out to so many of the riders who come to my clinics missing the basics. It’s such a shame that their trainers have not been able to offer them more effective instruction so that they could do x, y and z. It seems to me that we need to figure out a way to help those professionals better acquire the skills they need to teach their good amateur clients to (put their horses on the bit, execute a decent 20 m circle, fill in desired skill here.) Here is what I suggest…”
Note that an author can discuss such a problem without ever denigrating all those CUSTOMERS who have paid for training help in the past! And it can be done in a humble and constructive way, without any need for self aggrandizement.
But no; clearly that wasn’t the message CHS sent when she wrote her article, packed as it was with protestations of how accomplished she is and what a waste of her precious time and talent it is to teach people below “an advanced level.”
Fortunately for all concerned, though, I think this is much less likely to be a problem in her future, LOL.
But - and I think this is really important - this woman’s rant should NOT be allowed to create fear or embarrassment among amateurs who want to further their skills in clinic environments (with other, better professionals, BNTs or not.) Comments like:
I have thought about how much I would love to get to clinic with a BNT and perhaps that would help me make some big strides. I shrunk back into my chair at the thought that in their head I was wasting their time,
are just plain sad, and not likely to help our sport one little bit.
Dragon, let me tell you - the great, great majority of clinicians I have met over my last 3+ decades of riding are universally thrilled to have dedicated, passionate students show up for instruction at the clinics they offer. There is NO NEED to feel that you would be wasting anyone’s time if you show up prepared to be a good student and to give it your best. That is the entire POINT of clinics, after all!
As an example, when I did a clinic with WAZ - certainly a BNT - as a beginning dressage rider not that long ago, I was by far the least accomplished rider of the day. Hell, I didn’t reliably remember where the damn letters were at that point. WAZ started off by saying, “what a lovely horse. What do you do with him?”
I replied, truthfully, that he was a meter thirty horse… to much snickering from the gallery. WAZ paused a moment, smiled broadly, and said, “I jumped all my dressage horses, many of them to grand prix level. Every horse should jump; it is very good for them!” And I had a fabulous lesson.
So go, if you get a chance, and ride with a BNT if you want to. Show up with your horse gleaming, prepared to ride the best you are capable of, with an open mind and specific goals you hope to work on. And have a blast.
Many years ago as I was trying to climb a corporate ladder - so I could afford all this horse stuff - I took management training programs. One of the things I was taught was that when you are dealing with ‘lower level’ people ie those who are learning the ropes, new to industry or anyone who works for you, is that the manager should always try to say negative things in a positive fashion. Another was not to complain if I wasn’t willing to offer a solution. Clearly CH has missed both of these little life lessons. “I’m too busy” and “I’ll just stay home” don’t cut it.
She may not be wrong in whatever point she was trying to make, but its pretty clear she wasn’t successful…
The list of things that USA dressage needs in order to reach a really competitive level - is quite long. As we all well know. And its going to take YEARS.
But I will add another few ideas to the list.
The successful USA riders we have now - need to adopt an attitude of pay it forward. Give more than they take. It’s a crazy concept I know.
Stop engaging in the current game of ‘whose is bigger’ aka “I get $400 a lesson how much do you get”? This helps no one but your bank account and makes you look greedy.
Stop taking promising horses away from up and coming young professionals. The game of sidelining the owner and telling them “your horse is so fantastic, it will go further faster with me and you will get this glamorous life if I ride the horse” so the naive owner falls for this trick and poof the up and coming rider now looses a top horse. What should happen is the top rider should MENTOR the horse and young pro combo. Pay it forward people. How on earth will we ever build the next generation?
Stop engaging in the “I only ride FEI horses” Or “I should be only teaching GP riders”. Me thinks the emperor hath no clothes in these situations.
We need a system, we need a pony culture, we need sponsors and a national lottery to support our USA Olympic efforts.
But we also need our current top riders to GIVE. Give their time, give their knowledge, MENTOR the next generation. Inspire people to want to be like them through their deeds and actions - not winnings or placings.
Stop whining about no sponsors, or no made GP horses to ride, or why Europe never sells us their best GP horses (go buy young ones and train them yourselves - it’s not rocket science if you can really train and not just ride).
And for everyone’s sake don’t complain in public or in a blog or anywhere else about any of the above or about the people who pay your bills by hiring you to teach them in clinics.
[QUOTE=honeylips;7106163]
We’ve seen this type of behavior before. Rider trains in europe, has some success, comes back full of importance and thinks all USA riders should just fall at their feet. They have all the answers.
Lisa W pulled this when she first came back, but it changed when it didn’t go according to her “plan” for herself. Now she seems to teach everyone with a smile on her face. CHS could take a few lessons from her and learn from LW’s mistakes. It’s called ‘work’ for a reason.
IMHO CHS’ riding resume doesn’t have the depth to back up her mouth and ego. She’s trained with some folks who are decidedly viewed as left of center over there, she hasn’t ridden in a WEG or Olympics, she whined considerably and threatened to sue USEF when she didn’t get on the WEG team as a starting rider and she hasn’t trained any students with any appreciable success.
She’s quite known as a bully in the HP circles. She also uses her clinics to push her saddles and tells riders all their faults can be cured if they will buy one of her saddles.
From where I sit - there are a whole lot more humble, better trained, better riders, better teachers to give my money to.
To take people’s hard earned money and then B**ch about them behind their back in a public forum - is INEXCUSEABLE. And then to try to back peddle and say “I’m just trying to improve dressage in American that’s why I wrote this” is delusional. No wonder she doesn’t have a sponsor. Who’s gonna line up to give this chick money?[/QUOTE]
Put that way, it makes this situation sound like another NH trainwreck. And maybe it is. :yes: Does she push special whips or bridles too?
[QUOTE=Spiritwalker;7106170]
Actually she was the alternate for WEG on her young 10 year old that she trained to GP. She never threatened to sue USEF…How is she bitching behind their back when she’s stating things publically.[/QUOTE]
In my opinion, it’s behind their back because not everyone is going to be hanging on her every word on her blog, website, whatever. They’re likely not tuned 24/7 to the internet either. Now if she came right out and said where they could all hear…like at one of her clinics…THAT would not be behind their backs. Doubtful t would happen, but they surely would know it right out up front!
[QUOTE=CrowneDragon;7106171]
I haven’t posted in this thread because I couldn’t verbalize my thoughts, but you just did.
I agree with Haddad’s sentiment that we need a better system of trainers in the US. There ARE a lot of perpetual intro level riders out there because they get poor coaching, HOWEVER, the way in which she makes this point, and then goes on to “dis” the riders who have wasted the precious time she should be using to develop GP horses, is ridiculous and insulting.
If her real talent is in developing GP horses, how come she hasn’t produced more, or had any significant success with any of them internationally?
There is no way this woman could obtain and keep sponsorships with her piss-poor ability to communicate and total lack of professionalism.
Honestly, as a lower level rider I read her blog with some embarrassment. I have thought about how much I would love to get to clinic with a BNT and perhaps that would help me make some big strides. I shrunk back into my chair at the thought that in their head I was wasting their time, with the money that is anything but easy to come by for me.
I remember as a kid going to a Bruce Davidson clinic when he was on every Olympic team and there were many groups through the day, from kids on ponies to beginner, intermediate, and advanced groups. He gave full attention to all of them, and I really doubt he thought the 10 year olds jumping logs or the middle-aged riders in the beginner group were wasting his time.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this blog entry is enough to give one pause now if they are attending a clinic and make them wonder, “What is this clinician really thinking as they are teaching me? Are they putting on a game face or do they really want to keep my interests at heart for my money?” The thought is not inspiring to run out and attend a clinic, for sure.
