[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;7106449]
But Spiritwalker, isn’t that the exact platform that CHS chose?[/QUOTE]
operative word is forum. Clearly she’s not going to make everyone happy even if she was more tactful and I’m guessing that wasn’t her worry. Everyone has the riders they like or don’t and what offends one does not offend another. There are many that agree with her and many that don’t… What has frustrated me is people reading things that are just not there.
At the end of the day, Catherine is a talented teacher, has very insightful solutions for training issues, and can bring a horse and rider up through the levels to grand prix. She can make a young horse up through the levels and win at the grand prix at CDI’s. Criticize her syntax, tone and choice of phrases, but please don’t lose the point of her blog.
Gayarabpony - regarding my out of tune violin - yes, |I am satisfied. Honeylips offered great credentials, something that I was very interested to learn, and something I appreciate her offering without a snark.
On this board it is hard to distinguish the genuinely knowledgeable people or the ones that can type a good violin tune without much substance.
We all know, now, that Honeylips’ opinion would be one of those that count
for that I thank her. She knows of what she speaks.
[QUOTE=Spiritwalker;7106453]
operative word is forum. Clearly she’s not going to make everyone happy even if she was more tactful and I’m guessing that wasn’t her worry. Everyone has the riders they like or don’t and what offends one does not offend another. There are many that agree with her and many that don’t… What has frustrated me is people reading things that are just not there.[/QUOTE]
Exactly-she can’t please everyone, certainly. I’m speaking only for myself here, but I think I can be at times a pretty reasonable person who can usually sort though the bs and get to the meat. Everyone’s view of what is inferred and what is implied is different, sure, but as someone who wants to project herself as a GP trainer of horses and trainers, I’m not so sure she really understands what people are rejecting in her original blog. Her blog is about wanting something different for herself (training the trainers and ULs who can benefit from her skill (her words). She wants to do something different, which means that she wants to appeal to a different audience, right? Which means she needs a marketing campaign, right? I don’t think this was the best marketing campaign she could have designed. I get that she has a strong opinion-we all have strong opinions. But we can’t always state them as they exist in our minds as a rough draft when we are seeking business or respect. It’s not a matter of denying our beliefs, it’s just marrying our beliefs with a healthy balance of professionalism and marketing.
It’s no different in my line of work, either. I try not to alienate people before I ever get a chance to meet them. And I have strong beliefs, too.
Doesn’t mean my way is the right way, just a different way.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;7103034]
OK, so, I live in Buffalo.
I attempt to cobble together some sort of dressage education for myself here.
Think about that for a second.
Now let’s discuss options for “pursuing a dressage education in Buffalo.”
Meup, we have a USDF gold medalist at our barn. 2:20 away from you according to googlemaps but you will have to cross the border. Yes, gone Feb through April but available, knowledgable and accessible the rest of the time. Trains with Lars so sharp skills coupled with a lovely, kind personality
This thread is making me SOOO thankful for the wonderful instruction I have at home!!! Everyone from the rank beginner to the freshly green broke horse is seen as being able to benefit from some experienced eyes. 
cross country schooling also available during the summer, LOL.
FWIW Tasker is a USDF Gold and Silver medalist. I am a Silver medalist and first showed grand prix in the 1960s. I also spent 40 years as an “S” dressage judge. Dressage needs a half halt to get our basics back on track. Maybe any positive discussion coming out of this will help.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7105852]
If an upper-level trainer is tired of wasting her time on these types I for one can’t blame her and I think it’s a sign of integrity.[/QUOTE] (bolding mine)
Sorry to be blunt, but I think this statement is utter nonsense. The unwillingness to teach ”these types” (i.e., less-advanced riders) has NOTHING to do with “integrity”. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone choosing to pitch his or her teaching to a certain level of student, but that says nothing about the purity of his or her devotion to the sport. Now, I am guessing that someone will say that the phrase “these types” refers not to beginners per se, but to everyone’s favourite hobby-horse – the whiny, scared, lazy, self-entitled “want-it-now” AA. (I’m sure these creatures exist in real life, not just as archetypes in these scolding little sermons on COTH, but frankly I don’t run across that many in my little podunk corner of eventer-land – most of the AAs I meet are working as hard as they can, with the resources they have, to be as good as they can be under the circumstances.) If a trainer demonstrates their integrity by refusing to work with people who are self-entitled, take shortcuts and have a lousy work ethic – well, good on the trainer; but they better be psychic, because not everyone who fits this bill is riding at Training Level.
There were several things that did NOT bother me about Ms. Haddad’s blog. She says she doesn’t want/doesn’t have time to teach beginners: fine by me. She notes that many riders (and trainers) have significant and troubling holes in their basic education: this is an interesting observation, and it comes from someone with the credentials and experience to make this assessment. She suggests that the current system of dressage education is inefficient: interesting point of view; why not have a discussion about this? ALL THIS WAS FINE. But saying that students “dishonor” and “disrespect” her by showing up with poor skills – and (paraphrasing now) “I am just ONE PERSON, and I can’t save dressage all by myself” – holy crap, lady – GET OVER YOURSELF. When she started channeling Kanye West (“Bow in the presence of great-ness… You should be honored by my late-ness…”) I stopped caring about whatever interesting points she might have raised.
In every human endeavour, there are excellent practitioners who cannot teach at all. There are excellent practitioners who excel at teaching a certain kind of student, but not others. There are excellent practitioners who have the ability (and desire) to teach the entire spectrum of students – and lucky indeed is the student who encounters one of these wonderful teachers early in their learning journey. When I was a first-year MSc student, I had the incredible privilege to participate in a small seminar with the person who was literally one of the top four or five experts in the world in my field (in other words, someone who would considerably outrank Ms. Haddad in their respective areas of expertise ;)). The experience was utterly transformative, and I came out of it with my brain on fire with ideas that burned for a long time. I am extremely grateful that this person did not think he was “wasting his time” talking to a class of lowly grad students – nor that we were “dishonouring” him with our inexperience and ignorance.
She’s in good company . . .
[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;7106470]
Exactly-she can’t please everyone, certainly. I’m speaking only for myself here, but I think I can be at times a pretty reasonable person who can usually sort though the bs and get to the meat. Everyone’s view of what is inferred and what is implied is different, sure, but as someone who wants to project herself as a GP trainer of horses and trainers, I’m not so sure she really understands what people are rejecting in her original blog. Her blog is about wanting something different for herself (training the trainers and ULs who can benefit from her skill (her words). She wants to do something different, which means that she wants to appeal to a different audience, right? Which means she needs a marketing campaign, right? I don’t think this was the best marketing campaign she could have designed. I get that she has a strong opinion-we all have strong opinions. But we can’t always state them as they exist in our minds as a rough draft when we are seeking business or respect. It’s not a matter of denying our beliefs, it’s just marrying our beliefs with a healthy balance of professionalism and marketing.
It’s no different in my line of work, either. I try not to alienate people before I ever get a chance to meet them. And I have strong beliefs, too.
Doesn’t mean my way is the right way, just a different way.[/QUOTE]
Having watched the Flaming Pitchfork COTH Nation go off on Denny Emerson and George Morris in the past for similar transgressions (plain speaking, calling a spade a spade) I’d say Catherine is in very good company.
Now git TF off the Interwebz, put yer bum in the tack & RIDE!!! 
[QUOTE=Tasker;7106427]
Ok, now I am laughing!!! You guys are too much!
Because a bunch of people who have never met Catherine, never spoken to her, never ridden with her, never seen her teach or seen her ride are saying that she’s having a meltdown about a serious issue in our country and sport - I should cancel my plans to train with her???
Baaaahhhaaaaahaah! You have got to be kidding!
On a serious note - I’ve paid close to $300 to ride with her in a clinic - that one was quite a distance for her to travel and the fee was charged by the host (who is entitled to have a fee in there somewhere, I think). It. Was. Worth. Every. Single. Penny. IMO. That day changed my riding forever. (thank goodness)
So don’t forget to factor in travel fees and host costs when you are choking over that number. Clinic fees can be misleading. :yes:
Getting back to the meat of the blog - who’s on your list of trainers to train the next generation of trainers?
If you don’t care for CHS, who do YOU recommend and why?
Where would you organize said teaching sessions?
How much is a fair price to learn “a training system” from the beginning through Grand Prix? Either per lesson or a round number…whichever you find easier to calculate.
How would you go about soliciting participants? And auditors?
How long would each session last?
Are the sessions monthly, biannual, yearly?
Rather than wallowing in what/who/how you would have said differently - let’s all get proactive and talk about solutions to the problem at hand! :)[/QUOTE]
Most people (if not everyone) were not urging wholesale cancellation of any clinic plans with CD, were they? They said that THEY may not want to clinic with her now, but they didn’t give a thought to you.
The dressage world needs knowledgeable people who are willing to share that knowledge with whoever comes their way.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7106525]
Having watched the Flaming Pitchfork COTH Nation go off on Denny Emerson and George Morris in the past for similar transgressions (plain speaking, calling a spade a spade) I’d say Catherine is in very good company.
Now git TF off the Interwebz, put yer bum in the tack & RIDE!!! [/QUOTE]
She is not even in the same league as GM. He’s earned his right to be as blunt as he wants.
[QUOTE=Isabeau Z Solace;7106430]
Oh you are so sweet!! Thanks.[/QUOTE]
You should have told them to “bless their hearts”
[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;7106470]
Exactly-she can’t please everyone, certainly. I’m speaking only for myself here, but I think I can be at times a pretty reasonable person who can usually sort though the bs and get to the meat. Everyone’s view of what is inferred and what is implied is different, sure, but as someone who wants to project herself as a GP trainer of horses and trainers, I’m not so sure she really understands what people are rejecting in her original blog. Her blog is about wanting something different for herself (training the trainers and ULs who can benefit from her skill (her words). She wants to do something different, which means that she wants to appeal to a different audience, right? Which means she needs a marketing campaign, right? I don’t think this was the best marketing campaign she could have designed. I get that she has a strong opinion-we all have strong opinions. But we can’t always state them as they exist in our minds as a rough draft when we are seeking business or respect. It’s not a matter of denying our beliefs, it’s just marrying our beliefs with a healthy balance of professionalism and marketing.
It’s no different in my line of work, either. I try not to alienate people before I ever get a chance to meet them. And I have strong beliefs, too.
Doesn’t mean my way is the right way, just a different way.[/QUOTE]
She’s got 170 likes, 64 positive comments and 15 shares on facebook so I’d say she has plenty of people that agree. I don’t care to count to see how many individuals on this thread don’t agree(not posts but individuals). Disagreement is good maybe something good will come of her blog and maybe she will realize writing your thoughts down is not the same as speaking them.
[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;7106535]
She is not even in the same league as GM. He’s earned his right to be as blunt as he wants.[/QUOTE]
Very well said.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7106525]
Having watched the Flaming Pitchfork COTH Nation go off on Denny Emerson and George Morris in the past for similar transgressions (plain speaking, calling a spade a spade) I’d say Catherine is in very good company.
Now git TF off the Interwebz, put yer bum in the tack & RIDE!!! [/QUOTE]
The difference is that GM doesn’t think he is above teaching amateurs, even those who don’t ride at elite levels. Is he blunt? In his teaching style, yes. He also has strong opinions about his sport and what it needs to succeed going forward. However, GM doesn’t put himself above the fray; he is very active in teaching and training, at a much more advanced age than CHS, I might add. And he is just as demanding and exacting of the kids jumping 2’6" as he is of the big eq riders he coaches as they move up the big jumper ranks.
I understand CHS thinks she was just being plain spoken, or “blunt,” as she calls it. Being blunt would have been saying, “I see the need for more structured training for the local professionals I’ve come across,” or something along those lines. There was no need to denigrate the people who’ve hired her in the past, or to make such a big deal about how CHS considers teaching those folks - who presumably paid her well - to have been such a colossal waste of her time. That wasn’t blunt; it was rude. And given that she is in a service industry, I suspect she is going to find it was not very smart.
I attended a CHS clinic about a year ago and thoroughly enjoyed it. Yes she tried the Stubben Special saddle on most every horse and recommended that it would be a better saddle than the current one that the rider owned. That being said I loved the clinic, learned so much from auditing. Some of the horses did move better in the new saddle. I found her personable and never did she appear to think that her time was being wasted.
After reading he blog I don’t know if I would attend another clinic. I truly enjoy watching riders of all levels as I learn something from each and everyone of them. The fact that a more novice rider would put themselves out there in front of everyone to learn and be challenged takes a lot of courage in my opinion. I don’t know if I would have the courage. As someone new to dressage I have much to learn on all levels. Now to read a blog that says these novice riders are a waste of time is disheartening. Also, for all of the trainers that booked the clinic and have been teaching the students it says they have more work to do and possibly haven’t done a good enough job with their students. I am sure they didn’t feel that great after reading the blog.
However, I guess she has stated her case and there are other experienced and knowledgable people to clinic with who bring just as much to the table and possibly more. They might even enjoy it!
This was a fun video:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/american-excellence-george-morris-rides-winyamaro
Thanks for sharing that, not again! I missed that the first time around.
It would be exciting if the collective passion of the Chronicle Forum could put that energy to brainstorming about ways to strengthen trainer education and the flow of knowledge about teaching and dressage through our community…
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7106528]
Most people (if not everyone) were not urging wholesale cancellation of any clinic plans with CD, were they? They said that THEY may not want to clinic with her now, but they didn’t give a thought to you.
The dressage world needs knowledgeable people who are willing to share that knowledge with whoever comes their way.[/QUOTE]
Post #469 in this thread has righthorse asking about “would anyone go to another lesson/clinic” (paraphrasing - sorry - can’t figure out the multiple quote thing)
So, yes, I answered with the affirmative and said yes I would clinic again with Catherine. (not sure who CD is?)
And again - as a repeat clinic attendee - I can testify that CHS does not belittle or disrespect the less experienced riders - IME. They get super lessons on the basics - sitting properly, correct use of the reins and different ways to hold them to increase symmetry and balance, fair and kind treatment of the horse and rider and their abilities and goals - they have been very enlightening and encouraging of how to articulate things better as an instructor…regardless of body type, breed or size of equine.
So back to the list of questions I had back aways - any ideas of who should be training the trainers? Locations? Frequency? Cost? Let’s discuss some positive changes of how to improve things here in the US for all riders and trainers.
[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;7106435]I’m only one of the bunch, but that’s not what I said. I simply said that I wondered why anyone would want to after her blog comments. You’re exactly right: I’ve never met, spoken to, nor have I ever trained with her. But based solely on her comments alone, I don’t want to. There are a lot of other trainers out there with better records and, frankly, better marketing skills. Call me crazy, but I try to stay away from the polarizing crap. And I don’t think this is a serious issue in our country-there are hundreds more important serious issues.
[/QUOTE]
To answer your other question, the dressage community needs more instructors who know what they are doing and how to teach and don’t think they know all because they were rewarded at shows by putting their horse in a headset. My vote is for trainers from Europe if American trainers recently from Europe don’t want to take on the work.
It would a healthy exercise to discuss what she said instead of how she said it. There are very few people who can see a straight line from green broken to grand prix. And I can appreciate her frustration at sharing her gifts for teaching and training. She has new horses coming up through the levels and a full day of students every day. Her base? The USET. Maybe the roast will give way to some intelligent discussion.
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