So I know the opinion on COTH of The Horse Whisperer is not high, but how about The Dog Whisperer - Cesar Milan? Is he considered knowledgeable, methods workeable? I need some work with my dog, but nothing I feel I can’t handle myself with the right guidance.
Thoughts?
[QUOTE=JustTrails;5790366]
So I know the opinion on COTH of The Horse Whisperer is not high, but how about The Dog Whisperer - Cesar Milan? Is he considered knowledgeable, methods workeable? I need some work with my dog, but nothing I feel I can’t handle myself with the right guidance.
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
CM himself will tell you he is not a dog trainer, just someone that has dogs and helps people manage them.
CM has never trained a dog to do anything, not police work, not any kind of competition, not showing them, not hunting with them, not herding, not tricks for entertainment.
He is a bit like Pat Parelli is with horses, that knows about horses, has ridden some, but really not trained enough to really know what he is doing in any discipline, he was a kind of failed competition trainer once, other than rodeo bronc type riding and now his own invented ways of training, that, not knowing any real basics for what the rest of the world does with horses, is missing so much.
Training for any competition demands much technical knowledge and you can’t wing it, you either know what you are doing or it is plain that you don’t, if it is not there in what you do.
CM is the same, his training is by the seat of the pants, he doesn’t really aim to do anything with the training and without goals, it is a patch-patch-patch kind of training, reactive, rather than really proactive.
Then, he himself will say he is not a real trainer, but just works with dogs instinctively, as he sees best, doesn’t go by any preconceived ideas of how to train.
I call that, in dogs and horses, reinventing the wheel.
Why not use what we already know? We have good techniques and much knowledge already we can learn from others and keep building on, no need to start again from scratch and make the same mistakes over and over again.
Last I heard, he was still insisting on the old, debunked “alpha roll”, that we now know it was misunderstood as a proper dog behavior and has the potential of doing more harm than ever did good.
Here is more for you to read and think about:
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
In dog training circles, he is not very well tough of, but has many TV followers, I hear.
Agree w/Bluey.
CM has done some good in making people realize the importance of walking their dogs briskly a couple times a day for longer periods, or biking/jogging/skating with higher energy dogs. But his “dominance” theory/alpha rolls has probably negated any good from the previous.
Agreed!
I think what Ceasar Milan does works FOR CM.
It has entirely to do with his personal presence/working relationship/whatever. And I DO think that he as a person has a phenomenal way of working with dogs.
All of that ‘dominate and alpha roll your dogs from the start’ and ‘nazi style dog mastery’ stuff was disproven decades ago.
And (although not intentional) attempting to convey all he’s doing or WHAT he’s doing in a DIY sense across a half an hour show is scary :o I do think he’s got more sense about him than PP though.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;5790406]
Agree w/Bluey.
CM has done some good in making people realize the importance of walking their dogs briskly a couple times a day for longer periods, or biking/jogging/skating with higher energy dogs. But his “dominance” theory/alpha rolls has probably negated any good from the previous.[/QUOTE]
:yes:
When I evaluate an animal clinician, I like to ask “Just how badly can someone screw this up if they misread the situation while following these directions?” Milan fails that test for me. If a person already has a good instinctive ability to manage their dog, they aren’t going to be consulting Milan videos for advice. So, chances are the people who ARE consulting the videos have bad timing or just can’t read dog signals. Someone like that has no business attempting alpha rolls, etc. A person who can’t tell the difference between fear aggression and dominance aggression is going to end up in a world of trouble if they alpha roll their dog.
no.
I need some work with my dog, but nothing I feel I can’t handle myself with the right guidance.
Thoughts?
You would be FAR better off learning about operant conditioning and classical conditioning.
Check out clicker training, Karen Pryor training
http://www.clickertraining.com/blog
Sue Ailsby’s blog about training her service dog,
http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/blog-2/
or clicker solutions
Thank you all for your replies, it reinforces my gut feeling about CM. Also, thank you for the links, I will be checking them all out.
Little new dog, Benny, is a terrier/poodle/?? mix, about 9 lbs and full of energy. He does do some nipping with mostly men, I think it is dominance, and am not sure how to proceed from here. I’m looking in to some obedience classes for us as well.
Cesar Milan does not promote himself as a dog trainer, in fact I’ve seen him several times call in a dog trainer to fix a problem he didn’t feel qualified to fix. He is a dog behaviorist. His angle is to try to teach people that their dog isn’t nearly as screwed up as they are. He teaches people to stop projecting human emotions and motivations onto their dogs and treat their dog like a dog and not like a little furry human. And he insists people look after the DOG’s NEEDS rather than what THEY WANT for the dog. None of which is a bad thing. I think that a 30 minute segment on television should be viewed for entertainment purposes only and not be taken as a “how to guide” but that is true of just about any DIY kind of show. Should someone wish to pursue CM’s teachings then they should probably spring for the books and DVDs instead of relying on the TV show for information. JMHO. I think that all of these TV behaviorists/trainers (horse or dog) have something of value to offer, we just have to be clever enough to pick out the parts that will work for us in our own situation.
[QUOTE=JustTrails;5790794]
Thank you all for your replies, it reinforces my gut feeling about CM. Also, thank you for the links, I will be checking them all out.
Little new dog, Benny, is a terrier/poodle/?? mix, about 9 lbs and full of energy. He does do some nipping with mostly men, I think it is dominance, and am not sure how to proceed from here. I’m looking in to some obedience classes for us as well.[/QUOTE]
Get out of the dominance theory. It’s far more likely he is fearful of men, and biting as a reaction to that. Try having men that visit just sit quietly without looking at him, and dropping treats to him. And don’t have them pat, look or speak to the dog if he comes up to sniff. Just drop a treat near them. Eventually he’ll feel safer around them. If you have a male in the household, have them feed/walk him, to help him bond and see them as less of a threat.
If he isn’t fearful, but nipping, it’s also possible that the men in his life (previously or now) are seen more as playmates, as they have a rougher way of playing. Tone down any roughhousing, and google “The Bite stops here”
[QUOTE=PRS;5790795]
He is a dog behaviorist. [/QUOTE]
no he is not. He’s a dude with a TV show.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;5790829]
Get out of the dominance theory. It’s far more likely he is fearful of men, and biting as a reaction to that. [/QUOTE]
this.
I’ve trained the German Shepherd that I bought from Wynn Strickland with her. She invented many training methods and also developed the first agility course for the AKC. I don’t think you ever are 100% sure that your pet won’t act out but you can teach them to trust you and rely on you and if you can do that you can also get them to do what you ask. My GSD was not easy to train and I was a nervous owner because she was so fiesty. We did manage to get a basic obedience title with one blue ribbon and a second place also. But I could never get the control over her the way Wynn could over her dogs. She was clearly the dominant one in her pack whether she called it that or not and though I was also the leader with my dog she saw my weakness. Wynn holds more AKC titles than anyone, period over 200 titles. She is a natural leader.
I think there are some things that are key when training your dog, trust is first and don’t violate their trust. You should love them but not gush over them and never let them take advantage of you. Basic training should be the first thing you do while socializing them in public places. I don’t like that CM suggested that any collar that the owner feels comfortable with is fine with him. Wynn found that the pincher collars do cause pain and I’ve seen that time and again. If there are some dogs that tolerate more pain than others and they may have a tougher hyde then it’s not going to be as effective anyway.
I’ve found that attitude is everything when training a dog, you first have to make your mind up that this is what you will do and relax your mind also. It may not come natural to you. Think about how you work with your horse because the people who have horses and work with them usually work well with dogs also. And if one thing doesn’t work, try another approach. Always start gently but firmly. The recall is really important, it teaches the dog that they must come when you call and I think it’s a foundation for everything and a safety issue. But start by walking your dog on a 6’ lead in a nylon choker and be SURE it’s on correctly, it should release instantly when you have slack. Never use the choker to drag your dog, it’s a quick jerk and instant release and the collar should become instantly loose. Once you can walk your dog on a loose lead, a slight dip between the dog and handler is perfect. Make left and right turns and using verbal commands to heel, and having their shoulder at your leg at all times then you have a perfect heeling position. As soon as you stop your dog must sit and you have to teach them to sit before you begin. To teach sit you can take a short cut and hold a tiny smelly treat in your hand. As you hold the treat just above their nose you simultaneously put pressure on their hind end and as soon as they sit let them have the treat.(do not keep saying sit, sit, sit, say it once). Or you can just lift their chin up while putting pressure on their end and say “sit”. It’s best to find a good local trainer and work with them. Watch them work with other dogs and only go where you feel they are gentle but effective.
If you watch CM over time, you will see he deals with many dogs that other folks/trainers have given up on. Lots of those dogs out there. As an owner of a very,very aggressive dog that I adopted, I can tell you that the solution clicker trainers and their kind promote for my kind of dog is to put it down. That’s their solution to the problem. They don’t believe in serious obedience training if cookies aren’t part of the treatment plan, they don’t believe in prong collars or ecollars and most don’t believe in invisible fences either because, oh my, how can someone shock their furry little friend. Many of them forget that dogs are animals. Not children, not furry little friends. Not all aggressive dogs have been abused no matter what the postive only folks would like to believe and promote.
As you can tell I don’t have much respect for people who throw animals away because of difficulties in training and temperment. Too many dogs get thrown away, too many kids.
Lousy behavior is not acceptable no matter how many legs the organism has. But in today’s world, OMG, to correct a dog, or a kid,or a horse is abusive.
While Cm doesn’t do everything right, he sure isn’t the devil incarnate to animals who are close to being thrown overboard because of their behavior.
Good, good trainers know that their job is not so much to train the dog, but more important to train the owner and give the owner the tools needed to deal and train their own dog.
i find these threads on a horse forum downright sad because I hope the posters that criticize CM never use bits, or whips, or spurs, or correct a horse for biting, or kicking or pushing people around and invading their space etc.
and at the very least, have the courage of their convictions and never demand their horse should do what they ask of it.
Of course, maybe that’s why there seem to be so many spoiled horses out there that become other peoples problems to train.
Many dogs don’t really need strong intervention - what the vast majority of dogs need are owners that act like owners when needed,and don’t think about their dog not loving them.
Rewards are an important part of training but so are corrections when needed.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;5790834]
no he is not. He’s a dude with a TV show.[/QUOTE]
True, he has a TV show AND he studies a dog’s behavior which makes him a behaviorist in my book. He’s certainly not a dog trainer.
some of his methods have helped us in the past with our JRT’s. we would not do everything he advocates, but i feel that you can learn a little bit from every trainer.
I like CM. I’m not an avid watcher of his show, but from what I’ve seen I agree with being the pack leader of my dogs. 
CM mostly deals with dogs with VERY serious behavioral problems. Dogs that are sort of being given one last chance.
And he is good at that.
He is NOT a trainer. He doesn’t pretend to be.
He is a rehabilitator. And I respect him very much.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;5790963]
some of his methods have helped us in the past with our JRT’s. we would not do everything he advocates, but i feel that you can learn a little bit from every trainer.[/QUOTE]
Same here, some of his techniques work for me as well.
From watching the show, the main thing I get is that he is training the OWNERS how to behave with their dogs to get the desired behavior from the dogs. And to teach the owners how to understand life from a dogs point of view.
I don’t think he offers much in the way of training the dogs.
My opinions of the man are unprintable under the rules of this bb.
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