Cesar Milan - opinions of the Dog Whisperer

[threedogpack]

@pezk;5790881

If you watch CM over time, you will see he deals with many dogs that other folks/trainers have given up on. Lots of those dogs out there. As an owner of a very,very aggressive dog that I adopted, I can tell you that the solution clicker trainers and their kind promote for my kind of dog is to put it down. That’s their solution to the problem. They don’t believe in serious obedience training if cookies aren’t part of the treatment plan,

seriously? Really? How many c/t or operant conditioning trainers have you met? A .very. good friend of mine was one of 2 trainers in the state of Minnesota, used by the court system to evaluate aggressive dog cases brought in front of them.

guess what…she’s a clicker/cookie trainer.

and then I pull out Dr. Karen Overall, one of the leading veterinary behaviorist in the world. She’s a cookie trainer.

read THIS about her dog Flash.

Good, good trainers know that their job is not so much to train the dog, but more important to train the owner and give the owner the tools needed to deal and train their own dog.

Good trainers know you train BOTH.

[MsM]

Not a fan overall. He has only his own experience as credentials as a “behaviorist” (as do we all!) and follows outdated, disproven theories.

Appreciate the idea of “calm assertive energy” and not projecting human thoughts onto Poopsie as well as consistency.

Beyond that, I think he chooses or shows his clients carefully. Like Expo horse clinicians, the owners that have been totally clueless and let the animal walk all over them provide the best turnarounds in the short term. I have not watched much, but did see some dogs that I thought he did a disservice with his dominance and pack behavior ideas. And one dog looked like it was exhausted to the point of illness.

His ideas might help some clueless dog owners take leadership, but it may also result in them creating aggression issues if misapplied.

[pezk]

Yeah… “seriously” threedogpack. I’m met a few, talked to even more and I stand by my opinion. You train your dogs the way you see fit and I’ll train mine.

[tradewind]

The problem with the animal fields is that there are no requirements for a person to hang out their shingle as a trainer, groomer, etc. Anybody can say they are. I have zero respect for most of the sensitive new age methods that are currently in vogue in the pet professions in general. Most owners want a fix that involves as little real work as possible. This has left a big space for “trainers” to let them think that their dog is trained when really he has been taught to beg. A competent person can train a dog with any method, the average pet person can’t…I deal with more supposedly trained dogs for day care, boarding, and grooming that have zero clue how to behave in any situation. Dogs want leadership and rules and to be spoken to in a language they understand consistently. There are literally dozens of ways to do this, the hard part is to get the owners to follow along with a program. CM has at least started the discussion among people on how they are fallling short as responsible pet owners. The sad fact is most people spend more time picking out a sweater than a living breathing companion that they and their family will have to live with for a dozen years or so. This lack of serious thought before purchasing, or adopting has led to tons of lousy statistics in the areas of dogs dumped at shelters, euthanized at vets offices, the dog bite rate etc. Does CM deserve total hero worship? No, but very very few people do. And at least he does not pretend to be something that he is not. Which is more than I can say for alot of “trainers” I have met in the last 10 years of so.

[allintexas]

I’m not a big fan and hope that others don’t emulate him. Victoria Stillwell of “It’s me or the dog” seems to be a very good trainer who uses both common sense and accepted training methods. I love her and her show!

[Jaegermonster]

I never cared much for CM at all, think he’s a quack to be honest, but especially after his recent support of Michael Vick I am in the same camp with Ghazzu.

[Arrows_Endure]

You couldn’t pay me enough to let CM around my dogs.

Yup, you got it, I train with positive reinforcement methods. I kind of resent the person who stated that those of us who train with positive methods are looking for “shortcuts”, or that our dogs aren’t really trained.

Positive methods of training take much more work than traditional methods. I’ve done both, and I spend much more time working my dogs now. My dogs are well behaved at home and in public. They don’t bite, they don’t drag me down the road like a husky pulling a sled, and the listen when I ask them to do something, even if I’m not holding a cookie over their nose. I do NOT bribe my dogs to work for me, I reward them when they do. Depending on the dog, the reward varies. Yes, it can be food. Or play. Or some running time. Or just quiet praise. It depends on the situation, the intensity of the dog, and the amount of effort they just applied to the training.

CM’s methods involve methods that are stressful to the dog, and just aren’t necessary. I can accomplish the same thing without shutting the dog down, and without risking getting myself or others bit. If someone uses positive methods wrong, very rarely will they get hurt doing it. An alpha roll on the wrong dog, and you are going to get bit.

Now, if no one minds, I’m going to take my positively trained 11 year old dog outside now. We’ll go out off leash, with no fence, and my positively trained dog will not leave the yard because I trained him not too. He will come when I call, he will do as I ask, because I trained him too. I didn’t have to jerk on his neck one time. I didn’t have to scare him, or flood him, or alpha roll him.

For the record, he came to me with a serious abuse history. He was burned with acid on his face as a puppy. On purpose. He was terrified of people, was reactive, and was dangerous out in public. Add to that a dog with freakish intelligence. With a LOT of work, and a LOT of effort on my part, using positive methods, I have had a dog that was safe in public, could compete in obedience and agility, and could be handled by strangers without fear of him biting them. Methods like CM’s would have made this dog a dangerous animal.

[Big_Grey_hunter]

The episode that really drove home my hatred of CM was the one with the terrified doberman. His methods included strapping the dog to a treadmill and blasting thunder sounds, with balloons and other scary things billowing around the dog. The poor dog was terrified and he just made it keep going. WHen the dog finally shut down, he claimed the dog was no longer afraid. Bull crap, he flooded the dog until it couldn’t handle it and shut down. He also tossed the dog into a pool and said the dog felt ‘safe’ with CM towing it around. No, the dog was, again, terrified to the point of shutting down.

My favorite? He created a harness to toe the dog’s tail upright. Because according to him, forcing a dogs tail upright makes them more confident. Yeah, I know I feel SO much better when I tape up the corners of my mouth into a smile! Not.

He’s an overly aggressive, outdated trainer who relies on false pack behavior (dominant dogs/wolves do not act the way he claims they do) and uses flooding to create the image of a reformed dog, when in reality the dog’s overwhelmed and shutting down (flooding). Dogs don’t learn when they shut down.

[Barnfairy]

Having watched the show, usually I am far more annoyed/disturbed/shocked at the atrocities commited by the dog owners than anything CM has said or done.

Appropriately, the show has always had a disclaimer warning against attempting any of CM’s techniques without the help of a professional.

[Barnfairy]

@allintexas;5791232

I’m not a big fan and hope that others don’t emulate him. Victoria Stillwell of “It’s me or the dog” seems to be a very good trainer who uses both common sense and accepted training methods. I love her and her show!

I love the British version of her show. The American version? Meh.

[libgrrl]

There is a fairly local and sad case of a GSD that was shipped across the country (you can question whether this is a wise idea or not, but that is not the topic of this thread) from a pound in California to a GSD rescue on the East Coast. I have worked with this rescue in the past with some of our local shelter dogs, and had found them to be a good, solid and reputable rescue.

The pound dog was apparently severely underweight and had a nasty ear infection. He was apparently neutered shortly after he came to the rescue and placed in a foster home (my chronology may be slightly off, but you get the idea).

The foster apparently made a lot of questionable choices in the few days she had this dog, and there has been a fair amount of sturm und drang in a kind of scary FOB-ish kind of way concerning this case (all of this being off topic, but setting the scene). The upshot is, the foster got bit. Most of the outraged comments are complaining about the immediate neuter, the fact that the foster took the dog to a dog park shortly after the neuter, the fact that the foster used a prong on the dog, etc – all of which may or may not have some validity. However – what I found most damning, and what ultimately resulted in getting the foster bit was the fact that the foster had the dog on a short-ish leash in her backyard, with another dog (the foster’s dog) loose in her yard within two days or so of her picking him up. Apparently things were a bit uneasy between the two dogs from the get-go, and there was some sort of altercation/posturing between them (details are muddy) – but the foster apparently rolled the foster/rescue dog, and the dog bit her.

Dog is now labeled a dangerous dog and is scheduled to be euthed (although there are efforts to raise money to save him. Once again, wisdom of that effort should be a separate thread.) Is that validation of CM’s methods? How is that “saving” a dog?

Articles regarding this issue here:
http://www.examiner.com/dogs-in-national/an-email-recount-of-alex-the-german-shepherd-s-bite

http://www.examiner.com/dogs-in-national/when-poor-decisions-can-mean-death#ixzz1UdX5Dlir

[EventingJ]

@libgrrl;5791480

Dog is now labeled a dangerous dog and is scheduled to be euthed (although there are efforts to raise money to save him. Once again, wisdom of that effort should be a separate thread.) Is that validation of CM’s methods? How is that “saving” a dog?

I don’t really have a dog in the fight (:p) and I don’t necessarily agree nor disagree with CM’s methods, but to say that just because one idiot got bit because they ‘followed’ what they think CM teaches, don’t mean it CM’s fault. I’m pretty sure he teaches to block the dog from reacting, not rolling the dog on it’s back when its already in attack mode. From what I’ve seen the dogs on CM’s show are already pretty messed up as far as owners being pretty terrible at controlling their animals. Do I use CM’s methods on my own dog? no… but I also didn’t fail to teach my dog proper manners either.

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=PRS;5790795]
Cesar Milan does not promote himself as a dog trainer, in fact I’ve seen him several times call in a dog trainer to fix a problem he didn’t feel qualified to fix. He is a dog behaviorist. His angle is to try to teach people that their dog isn’t nearly as screwed up as they are. He teaches people to stop projecting human emotions and motivations onto their dogs and treat their dog like a dog and not like a little furry human. And he insists people look after the DOG’s NEEDS rather than what THEY WANT for the dog. None of which is a bad thing. I think that a 30 minute segment on television should be viewed for entertainment purposes only and not be taken as a “how to guide” but that is true of just about any DIY kind of show. Should someone wish to pursue CM’s teachings then they should probably spring for the books and DVDs instead of relying on the TV show for information. JMHO. I think that all of these TV behaviorists/trainers (horse or dog) have something of value to offer, we just have to be clever enough to pick out the parts that will work for us in our own situation.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! I love Cesar and love to watch him work but even after 30 years of training dogs (and I do believe that I have to be the LEADER of the pack to be effective not the dogs’ BFF) I could never tackle the dogs he does. He just has that natural and instinctive way of reading their body language and knowing how to respond. He has been able to rehabilitate so many dogs that would have been killed otherwise. Personally I think that is more important than any competition training. First the dog has to be a pet and trainable BEFORE any competition training. Just as a horse has to RIDE before you worry about going up the levels. If the horse never goes to a show big deal, it’s far more important for him (esp. for him!) to be a safe riding horse.

[lauriep]

I like and agree with much of what he does. I haven’t read his books or seen his DVDs, but I have never seen him do an alpha roll on the TV show. His primary focus is on getting the OWNERS to stop anthropomorphizing and start to think like a dog. This is not a bad thing. Treating an animal, dog, cat or horse, as the animal it is, and not a child, is the basic tenant that most of the owners on the shows seem to have missed. Teaching them to become more observant of body language, how to prevent a fight/aggression BEFORE it happens or escalates, it basic good dog ownership.

[JanM]

I think CM has his place, and it’s working with clueless owners (and from the book about dogs he’s worked with many owners say they’re going to do the exercise and other work and don’t, so the dog is put down or rehomed) with spoiled dogs. I think most of the cases we see on tv are on their last chance, and if it works for some then that’s good. When the alternative is being put down, or dumped at the pound to be put down then I don’t argue with his methods.

His methods may not work with every dog, and are certainly not for amateurs (that’s why they have the disclaimer before the show starts), but most people can’t watch a dvd or tv show or read a book and change their dog either. He saves dogs by changing owners, and that works for me. I don’t think any behaviorist or trainer is perfect, and they all have their failures, but the dogs win sometimes and stay in a home, so I’m happy with the successes.

[BetterOffRed]

It cracks me up to watch my father try his CM training on my dogs. I think my dad believes he’s a dog training authority because he’s watched CM and read the book. :rolleyes: Of course, his ‘alpha’ attitude works on my male- because my male has been trained to death (with reward style training).:yes:

My female, is like 'whatevs, I don’t have to listen to you. I will just tune you out and do whatever I want." She’s never had to go to obedience school, she was ‘dog to go’ and instinctively obedient but she just shuts down when you try that alpha dog, hissing, yanking on her collar thing on her.

So, when my dad comes to visit and helps me walk the dogs, I let my dad take my male corgi and let him think he’s awesome because his ‘technique’ worked on him! NOT! :lol:

[chism]

[QUOTE=libgrrl;5791480]
There is a fairly local and sad case of a GSD that was shipped across the country (you can question whether this is a wise idea or not, but that is not the topic of this thread) from a pound in California to a GSD rescue on the East Coast. I have worked with this rescue in the past with some of our local shelter dogs, and had found them to be a good, solid and reputable rescue.

The pound dog was apparently severely underweight and had a nasty ear infection. He was apparently neutered shortly after he came to the rescue and placed in a foster home (my chronology may be slightly off, but you get the idea).

The foster apparently made a lot of questionable choices in the few days she had this dog, and there has been a fair amount of sturm und drang in a kind of scary FOB-ish kind of way concerning this case (all of this being off topic, but setting the scene). The upshot is, the foster got bit. Most of the outraged comments are complaining about the immediate neuter, the fact that the foster took the dog to a dog park shortly after the neuter, the fact that the foster used a prong on the dog, etc – all of which may or may not have some validity. However – what I found most damning, and what ultimately resulted in getting the foster bit was the fact that the foster had the dog on a short-ish leash in her backyard, with another dog (the foster’s dog) loose in her yard within two days or so of her picking him up. Apparently things were a bit uneasy between the two dogs from the get-go, and there was some sort of altercation/posturing between them (details are muddy) – but the foster apparently rolled the foster/rescue dog, and the dog bit her.

Dog is now labeled a dangerous dog and is scheduled to be euthed (although there are efforts to raise money to save him. Once again, wisdom of that effort should be a separate thread.) Is that validation of CM’s methods? How is that “saving” a dog?

Articles regarding this issue here:
http://www.examiner.com/dogs-in-national/an-email-recount-of-alex-the-german-shepherd-s-bite

http://www.examiner.com/dogs-in-national/when-poor-decisions-can-mean-death#ixzz1UdX5Dlir[/QUOTE]

It’s a shame that poor dog is going to die because of the foster’s stupidity.

I get so disgusted when I watch CM’s show, not because of his methods, but because of all the stupid people that have no right owning a dog in the first place.

[Chester_s_Mom]

@Sonesta;5791005

CM mostly deals with dogs with VERY serious behavioral problems. Dogs that are sort of being given one last chance.

And he is good at that.

He is NOT a trainer. He doesn’t pretend to be.

He is a rehabilitator. And I respect him very much.

As do I. Our rescue group sees many many dogs in bad circumstances, and just as with people and horses there is not a one size fits all approach to fixing them. Nor does CM advocate one. He does what works for him and for the particular situation.

I have learned an awful lot by watching his body language as he deals with the dogs and people and hopefully can have one TENTH of the patience he shows some of these humans :lol:

[Kryswyn]

[QUOTE=JustTrails;5790794]
Thank you all for your replies, it reinforces my gut feeling about CM. Also, thank you for the links, I will be checking them all out.

Little new dog, Benny, is a terrier/poodle/?? mix, about 9 lbs and full of energy. He does do some nipping with mostly men, I think it is dominance, and am not sure how to proceed from here. I’m looking in to some obedience classes for us as well.[/QUOTE]

If he’s nipping at the back of men’s legs as they walk away, that is fear biting.

Dominance is more likely to be face to face, with growling first.

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=Kryswyn;5793288]
If he’s nipping at the back of men’s legs as they walk away, that is fear biting.

Dominance is more likely to be face to face, with growling first.[/QUOTE]

Fearful dogs will very often bite head on, growling first. I think the “dominance” thing is pretty much a myth. Unless you are meaning “Resource guarding/food aggression”, which still isn’t because they are “dominant”.

Here’s an excellent article with videos on “dominance theory”.
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/?/dominance.php

.