Cesar Milan - opinions of the Dog Whisperer

[wendy]

If you watch CM over time, you will see he deals with many dogs that other folks/trainers have given up on. Lots of those dogs out there. As an owner of a very,very aggressive dog that I adopted, I can tell you that the solution clicker trainers and their kind promote for my kind of dog is to put it down.

since when? I don’t watch the show very often, but the few episodes I’ve seen the dog has very typical problems that most “clicker trainers” can and routinely do solve in a few weeks, but the owners are too impatient and want the dog “fixed” now, instantly, overnight, with no effort on their part. Behaviorists and “clicker trainers” routinely “cure” “aggressive” dogs. In fact, my dog training club has a thriving business going about rehabbing dogs that have been turned into fear-biters due to their owners blindly following advice handed out on CM’s show.
CM’s “theory” about dog behavior (packs, leaders, dominance) was disproven decades ago. Anyone who suggests “alpha rolling” today is a big clue that they know squat about dog behavior and one should run far away as fast as possible.
He’s a dude with a TV show. Which is heavily edited. And has a big warning “DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME”. Follow the warning.

[Foxtrot_s]

I enjoy his show, mostly it seem he is training the dim-wit newbie owners how to cope with a dog that is unsuitable to their situation. I’d never be a cultish follower of any tv personality, but I do get a kick out of Daddy and the whole pack at Caesar’s place.

He did a tour in eastern Canada and brought Daddy with him, but had to leave Daddy outside Toronto, Ontario, because of their dangerous dog rule.

[witherbee]

I really like his show and don’t see much emphasis on dominance at all - leadership, yes. I realize that he is not the same as a regular dog trainer, but rehabbing a dog and helping non-dog people learn to live with their dogs is right up his alley. What I like is, although he can get frustrated with the owners, he is also very compassionate with them and he teaches the humans to gain confidence and in some cases to change their lives. He deals with a lot of nervous, scared and unhappy people, and he helps them to see that their dogs see what they project. Some of the people change quite a bit.

I have worked with a “real” dog trainer, so I know how to teach sit, stay, heel etc., but I like CM’s methods to “sh” my dogs and to teach them how to greet people properly.

[jetsmom]

This thread wouldn’t be complete without this…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpFRJ2S4BeA

And this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVcx8qX2jjM

and this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShB6MhdqJE

.

[AA_Hunter]

I enjoy his show–he seems to have a real empathy for dogs and is good at working with people too. Usually the show is more about training the people than training the dogs. I wouldn’t try to train a dog based on anybody’s DVD, but the show reminds viewers that dogs are dogs, not toys or little people.

[HydroPHILE]

I’m a bully breed owner, and I’m a volunteer with a bully breed rescue.

Not a Cesar fan here. I don’t appreciate some of his methods of choking out an overly-reactive dog, etc. Some of his training methods and techniques are pretty common sense (which ain’t so common!) such as walking with a solid and straight posture, looking straight ahead, etc.

Here are just some of the reasons why I am not a fan:

http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/index.html

I also agree with the statement that CM is like PP and that there are folks who watch Dog Whisperer and think that (without a certified behaviorist or professional trainer consulted) they can solve Fluffy’s problems of being unpredictable and randomly attacking people.

[Auventera_Two]

I love CM’s methods. I also love Patricia McConnell’s methods, which are completley polar opposite of CM. Each dog and each situation is different. Take what you need for the situation at hand. I own 3 dogs - all VERY different breeds and different traits and tendencies. I use CM’s and PMC’s methods on all 3 of them, depending on the situation.

CM has never called himself a dog trainer. And typically he works with dogs and humans that are so far dysfunctional they are dangerous or completely helpless. He works with dogs that trainers and other behaviorists have given up on.

My favorite story to share of how CM’s method worked a miracle for me was this - the stray Pit Bull that was wilder than a March hare and hanging around our farm for almost 3 months. That dog was terrified of humans, terrified of his own shadow. I tried and tried and I could NOT get near that dog. He was an intact male, and trying to cause problems with my 2 existing dogs. He was marking “his territory” daily and creating a real mess. He was hungry and he was beat up and ragged. But he would NOT go away and stay away.

The day I finally caught him, I sat on the driveway in my PJs for 2 hours with a can of dog food and bowl of water. It was a back and forth game - the dog would come in a few feet and then bolt and run. Come in, bolt and run. It was tiring and stressful to sit there tempting him with food and water (this was in November and resources were getting scarce). I was freezing cold and getting numb, but I had to catch that freakin dog some how.

I finally did catch him and immediately I stood up and started walking. I did not pet the dog, I did not talk to him, I did not look at him at all. I started walking. The rope tightened up and he followed along behind me. We walked and walked and walked. We walked the entire farm, we walked the back roads around the farm, we walked the pastures and woods. I walked and I never said a word to that dog or touched him with a hand. We walked until he was 100% relaxed, and looking to me for support and guidance.

The experience of walking and walking and walking cemented in that dog’s mind that I am the leader - he is the follower - this is his new pack. Follow me. I have food. I have water. I have leadership.

The dog didn’t care about cooing and petting and kissing. He didn’t care about treats or toys or anything except food, water, and someone to be a leader.

That was over 3 years ago and to this day the dog is my constant companion. He is a beautifully adjusted and trained dog. Everybody loves him. He loves everybody else. He is absolutely obedient and happy. He is truly a joy to be around.

I do believe that the dog had SO MUCH FEAR that if I had cooed and petted and coddled and kissed, he would have never trusted me to be his LEADER. He needed firm, focused, consistent, and bold. This dog was wanting a leader so bad. He was scared to be alone and making his own decisions.

I did not dominate the dog, or train the dog, or gentle the dog. I led the dog. Literally and mentally. Everything else fell into place over the coming months.

People think CM is all about “dominating.” He is NOT. He is about providing sound, firm leadership. In the wild, dominant pack members will bite the necks of subordinants and hold them to the ground in submission. I have rarely needed to do that with my dogs, though on ocassion I have. Those mutleys know without any question that mamma is boss. As long as they abide by pack rules, everything is happy and sweet and nice. But if they want to fight over toys or try to plow me through a door way (they are all BIG dogs), they’re going to learn that mamma lays down some discipline. And they know it. They are not by ANY means scared of me. I wrestle on the floor with them and play frisbee and go on walks. But when I say enough - or no - that’s what I mean. They are very well adjusted, happy dogs.

[Auventera_Two]

@wendy;5794403

since when? I don’t watch the show very often, but the few episodes I’ve seen the dog has very typical problems that most “clicker trainers” can and routinely do solve in a few weeks, but the owners are too impatient and want the dog “fixed” now, instantly, overnight, with no effort on their part. Behaviorists and “clicker trainers” routinely “cure” “aggressive” dogs. In fact, my dog training club has a thriving business going about rehabbing dogs that have been turned into fear-biters due to their owners blindly following advice handed out on CM’s show.
CM’s “theory” about dog behavior (packs, leaders, dominance) was disproven decades ago. Anyone who suggests “alpha rolling” today is a big clue that they know squat about dog behavior and one should run far away as fast as possible.
He’s a dude with a TV show. Which is heavily edited. And has a big warning “DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME”. Follow the warning.

LMAO! You should tell that to my hound who has alpha rolled the other two on MORE than one ocassion! :eek: One moment everything is happy and peachy and everybody is playing bite the ankles of the other doggy and then BAM. Somebody goes too far and the hound sqwalls like a dying wildabeast and throws somebody to the ground by their neck. He then walks off in a snit and the subordinate mutt is sitting there as pretty as can be saying YES SIR. I won’t do that again.

He has thrown down the Pit Bull who outweighs him by 40 pounds. The PB lays there with eyes bugging out of his head wondering what the freak he did to deserve that. The hound stalks off all proud of himself that he knocked one of his subordinants down another peg.

No, I don’t like it when he does that, but it’s normal dog behavior. Horses bite and kick each other. Dogs bite and growl and roll each other over. It’s a part of animal life. If people can’t handle that, they should not own animals.

People who only one one dog rarely get to see how dogs REALLY interract with one another. But when you live with a dog pack most of your life, like I have, you observe and understand their behaivor, much like you understand your horse herd.

For years I watched my Chow Chow discipline the Springer pups if they needed it. He had NO reservations about flipping them on their back and giving them a good neck bite and growl and then stalk off. He never physically injured them and his discipline was always warranted and well executed. The pups learned that when big daddy dog says NO, he means NO. Period!

[Auventera_Two]

@lauriep;5791714

I like and agree with much of what he does. I haven’t read his books or seen his DVDs, but I have never seen him do an alpha roll on the TV show. His primary focus is on getting the OWNERS to stop anthropomorphizing and start to think like a dog. This is not a bad thing. Treating an animal, dog, cat or horse, as the animal it is, and not a child, is the basic tenant that most of the owners on the shows seem to have missed. Teaching them to become more observant of body language, how to prevent a fight/aggression BEFORE it happens or escalates, it basic good dog ownership.

People like to squeal about the Great Dane he forced to walk across the lineoleum. Apparently the dog slipped and fell while crossing this floor at one time and now he is horrified of slick glossy floors. His owner was putting down runner rugs all over the house so the dog never had to walk across the slippery flooring.

CM essentially forced the dog onto the floor and made him deal with the fear. Made him realize that just because he slipped once before, he wasn’t necessarily going to slip and fall again. In a matter of minutes the dog was striding boldly and confidently across the floor without any issues. He was able to do it off leash as well.

I compare this to my experience at a dentist when I had to get a crown pulled off because it was loose. The dentist wanted me to bite down on a block of hard chewy stuff and then open my mouth to yank the crown off. I was so terrified, I would NOT do it. I was shaking and sweating - totally convinced it was going to hurt, or it would yank out the whole root with the crown…basically I being a hysterial idiot about it. And I was 30 years old! :eek: :lol:

Finally after some coddling and convincing, and my persistent refusal to bite down on the hard chewy stuff and yank the crown off, the dentist said “Oh stop it! I have kids in here that behave better than this. You’re wasting my time.” So I bit down on the stuff, opened up my mouth and the crown was off. Then the next time I had to pull another loose crown off, it was no big deal.

If the dentist hadn’t gotten firm with me and essentially told me I was being a whiny tit bag, I would have never done it. I’d have ended up going to the surgeon guy to get knocked out so I didn’t have to mentally deal with it.

So in some situation a “too bad - get over it” mentality IS useful. No, not in all situations. But CM doesn’t use it in all situations.

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5794982]
LMAO! You should tell that to my hound who has alpha rolled the other two on MORE than one ocassion! :eek: One moment everything is happy and peachy and everybody is playing bite the ankles of the other doggy and then BAM. Somebody goes too far and the hound sqwalls like a dying wildabeast and throws somebody to the ground by their neck. He then walks off in a snit and the subordinate mutt is sitting there as pretty as can be saying YES SIR. I won’t do that again.

He has thrown down the Pit Bull who outweighs him by 40 pounds. The PB lays there with eyes bugging out of his head wondering what the freak he did to deserve that. The hound stalks off all proud of himself that he knocked one of his subordinants down another peg.

No, I don’t like it when he does that, but it’s normal dog behavior. Horses bite and kick each other. Dogs bite and growl and roll each other over. It’s a part of animal life. If people can’t handle that, they should not own animals.

People who only one one dog rarely get to see how dogs REALLY interract with one another. But when you live with a dog pack most of your life, like I have, you observe and understand their behaivor, much like you understand your horse herd.

For years I watched my Chow Chow discipline the Springer pups if they needed it. He had NO reservations about flipping them on their back and giving them a good neck bite and growl and then stalk off. He never physically injured them and his discipline was always warranted and well executed. The pups learned that when big daddy dog says NO, he means NO. Period![/QUOTE]

If you watch carefully, the dogs do not forcibly push the other dog to the ground and hold them down. One dog will submit and roll onto their back offering their neck. The other dog will often keep their open mouth poised just slightly touching the other dog’s neck. That’s a huge difference than a person forcibly rolling a dog onto it’s back and holding them down. The dog DID NOT voluntarily submit, in that case. So the mindset is not one of submission. All the person will do is make the dog not trust the person or become fearful.

[Bluey]

Over 30 years training dogs, I have heard all kinds of fancyful stories of how every one’s dog is so well trained, how they mind them so well, how they can do this and that with their dog.
The reality, once I get to see the dog and person, many times, is way different than the owner imagines, because the owner most times don’t has the foggiest idea what a really well trained, attentive dog is.

So, when someone tells you stories about their well trained dogs, take them with a grain of salt or two, unless you are there and can see it.

I don’t know how many so well trained dogs in the mind of their owners, when they want to show me, consist of yelling at the dog louder and louder, while the dog is standing there puzzled and finally sits down, still puzzled and the owner beams “see, he sits on command!”:winkgrin:
Then proceeds to call the dog that, still clearly clueless, keeps sitting there with this expression.

Seriously, unless you have trained dogs for something other than a hit and miss getting along with them in life at home, in the yard and barn, you really don’t know what training dogs is.

If you have trained dogs to show in some dog show discipline, or hunting, or herding, or police work, or some such, you really don’t have a measure of what training a dog really is.

Living with a dog that learns what you want and all get along is not having a trained dog.
As soon as either of you are out of your environment, your supposedly well trained dog will not be trained any more, because it is not really trained, just adjusted to one situation.

All our dogs were excellent family dogs, growing up and as an adult, but trained, sorry, they were not trained until I started training with a police officer, that bred and trained for different tasks and sold his trained dogs to sheriff departments special units, after teaching their deputies how to work with the dog.
I then trained with a performance dog club, in obedience and later agility and at the same time herding with an USBCHA trainer.

A well trained dog is one that can do a task and do it wherever it is asked to do it, which most nice, obedient family dogs are not.

That is one important difference between someone just getting along with dogs and someone training and doing something with dogs as partners, a world of difference.

[wendy]

Dogs bite and growl and roll each other over.

they don’t forcibly roll each other- the dog rolls itself to indicate its submission, and dogs who go around repeatedly and often asking other dogs to roll are unusual and are being bullies (yes dogs can be bullies); and if you can’t see this, well, this brings up my pet theory, impossible to prove: people who are fans of CM can’t read dog body language very well. People who don’t like his methods watch the show and cringe at the dog body language they see- shut down, scared, terrified into compliance. I personally don’t believe CM himself can read dog body language at all, which explains why he’s been bitten so many times. He just overwhelms/terrifies/bullies the dogs into not-behaving, which he calls “calm submissive”, which unfortunately a lot of people think is what a well-behaved dog acts like- it does nothing much unless given an order.

And yes, dogs talk to each other in dog language, which may include inhibited bites and growls. What that has to do with human-dog communication I don’t know. I certainly don’t want to go around giving inhibited bites to my dog, and those ridiculous finger-pokes CM claims are “bites” are just laughable. What do dogs do when they want attention? they poke with their paws. What do you think they conclude when some human pokes them with a paw?

[Big_Grey_hunter]

@wendy;5795113

they don’t forcibly roll each other- the dog rolls itself to indicate its submission, and dogs who go around repeatedly and often asking other dogs to roll are unusual and are being bullies (yes dogs can be bullies); and if you can’t see this, well, this brings up my pet theory, impossible to prove: people who are fans of CM can’t read dog body language very well. People who don’t like his methods watch the show and cringe at the dog body language they see- shut down, scared, terrified into compliance. I personally don’t believe CM himself can read dog body language at all, which explains why he’s been bitten so many times. He just overwhelms/terrifies/bullies the dogs into not-behaving, which he calls “calm submissive”, which unfortunately a lot of people think is what a well-behaved dog acts like- it does nothing much unless given an order.

So true. This is why my old, arthritic lab can roll my strong, athletic BC/hound. She very rarely does, but if he gets too rough and hurts her, she turns on him and has him flat on the floor submitting before you can say “Cesar”. She never touches, him but her body language says “Enough, I’m alpha. Back off” and he shows proper submissive behavior. When he’s worried or thinks he’s in trouble, he rolls over for us too. But, if I were to grab his neck and force him, he would panic and fight until he shut down. Submissive behavior such as licking at the jaw, lowering the tail, or rolling is behavior offered by the sub-ordinate, not forced by the dominant dog.

A dog who grabs a dog by the neck and forcibly holds them down is being aggressive, not dominant. My old lab as a young dog was attacked by a newfie, who rolled her and held her down by the neck. She was terrified and not at all submissive, just trying to get away. She wasn’t harmed (we kicked him off of her), but she certainly wasn’t interested in approaching and offering submission to the aggressive dog as she would to a dominant dog.

[RougeEmpire]

yawn

Is it that time again? already? The ten times a year Ceasar Millan pro vs. against debate?

For the record I cant stand that nut job Victoria Stillwell, she’s just plain terrible.

[BetterOffRed]

[QUOTE=RougeEmpire;5795438]
For the record I cant stand that nut job Victoria Stillwell, she’s just plain terrible.[/QUOTE]

Is it the fake, rubber riding boots?

[lovey1121]

Bluey–

Everyone starts somewhere.

How many times in my life have I said, “Wow, I thought I understood (collection, heeling, training recall, half-halt, etc) but now I FINALLY get it!” Only to have the same A-HAH moment again on the same subject weeks, months, years later.

Always learning, always trying to get better.

I’m at the dog thing 30 yrs. too. I know and have great respect for a couple of trainer friends who do not show, hunt, herd, or bite:D, but who have a lovely way with dogs and or dog owners, helping them get along better with their pups. Just good dog people helping the ignorant masses, just like you do-(me too.)

You dont need letters behind your name or your dog’s to have a well-trained dog. Nor do you need letters to be an effective and positive dog trainer. But it sure does help you get the bigger bucks;)

Was your post directed at Auventera? If so, I don’t see where your cork got popped. :winkgrin:

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=lovey1121;5795528]
Bluey–

Everyone starts somewhere.

How many times in my life have I said, “Wow, I thought I understood (collection, heeling, training recall, half-halt, etc) but now I FINALLY get it!” Only to have the same A-HAH moment again on the same subject weeks, months, years later.

Always learning, always trying to get better.

I’m at the dog thing 30 yrs. too. I know and have great respect for a couple of trainer friends who do not show, hunt, herd, or bite:D, but who have a lovely way with dogs and or dog owners, helping them get along better with their pups. Just good dog people helping the ignorant masses, just like you do-(me too.)

You dont need letters behind your name or your dog’s to have a well-trained dog. Nor do you need letters to be an effective and positive dog trainer. But it sure does help you get the bigger bucks;)

Was your post directed at Auventera? If so, I don’t see where your cork got popped. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

No, I didn’t direct my post at anyone, my comments were general.

I see the Parellis and CMs of the horse and dog world, that fly by the seat of their pants training, as such a waste of good training opportunities.
Here they have the skills to address audiences, to make horse and dog training interesting and get to the general public and what do they do?
They refuse, even make fun of standard training ideas and techniques, go with goofy and some unsafe training ways!

With all the information out there for grabs, why do they not LEARN a little bit of it and don’t do such clearly off things, like PP being rough and not changing when advised of it, or CM insisting on dominating dogs physically in ways we know are less than good training, etc.?

Sure, they make their kind of training work for them as entertainers, but don’t you feel sorry for the subjects, the horses and dogs that are pawns in their hands in ways they should not be, that we know better today?

Training is not rocket science, is learning a few basics and horses and dogs just melt in your hands, as any good trainer can tell you.

Our dog club lost last year to cancer one of our better, nicest trainers you ever knew.
That is who we sent those with serious aggression problems, that our classes could not accommodate.
Guess what, those dogs turned around for him without fireworks or rough handling of any kind.
Guess that kind of training would not make for interesting TV shows.

I would say that, after being at the receiving end of the general public surrendering dogs time and again and again to the animal control shelter for any and all reasons, I get anxious about not doing right for the dogs, best we can, training in ways that are not conductive to the dog remaining in their homes, on training with methods that have a good chance of causing more problems than they are trying to solve and the first CM shows I saw, he was doing just that.

[summerhorse]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5794947]
I love CM’s methods. I also love Patricia McConnell’s methods, which are completley polar opposite of CM. Each dog and each situation is different. Take what you need for the situation at hand. I own 3 dogs - all VERY different breeds and different traits and tendencies. I use CM’s and PMC’s methods on all 3 of them, depending on the situation.

CM has never called himself a dog trainer. And typically he works with dogs and humans that are so far dysfunctional they are dangerous or completely helpless. He works with dogs that trainers and other behaviorists have given up on.

My favorite story to share of how CM’s method worked a miracle for me was this - the stray Pit Bull that was wilder than a March hare and hanging around our farm for almost 3 months. That dog was terrified of humans, terrified of his own shadow. I tried and tried and I could NOT get near that dog. He was an intact male, and trying to cause problems with my 2 existing dogs. He was marking “his territory” daily and creating a real mess. He was hungry and he was beat up and ragged. But he would NOT go away and stay away.

The day I finally caught him, I sat on the driveway in my PJs for 2 hours with a can of dog food and bowl of water. It was a back and forth game - the dog would come in a few feet and then bolt and run. Come in, bolt and run. It was tiring and stressful to sit there tempting him with food and water (this was in November and resources were getting scarce). I was freezing cold and getting numb, but I had to catch that freakin dog some how.

I finally did catch him and immediately I stood up and started walking. I did not pet the dog, I did not talk to him, I did not look at him at all. I started walking. The rope tightened up and he followed along behind me. We walked and walked and walked. We walked the entire farm, we walked the back roads around the farm, we walked the pastures and woods. I walked and I never said a word to that dog or touched him with a hand. We walked until he was 100% relaxed, and looking to me for support and guidance.

The experience of walking and walking and walking cemented in that dog’s mind that I am the leader - he is the follower - this is his new pack. Follow me. I have food. I have water. I have leadership.

The dog didn’t care about cooing and petting and kissing. He didn’t care about treats or toys or anything except food, water, and someone to be a leader.

That was over 3 years ago and to this day the dog is my constant companion. He is a beautifully adjusted and trained dog. Everybody loves him. He loves everybody else. He is absolutely obedient and happy. He is truly a joy to be around.

I do believe that the dog had SO MUCH FEAR that if I had cooed and petted and coddled and kissed, he would have never trusted me to be his LEADER. He needed firm, focused, consistent, and bold. This dog was wanting a leader so bad. He was scared to be alone and making his own decisions.

I did not dominate the dog, or train the dog, or gentle the dog. I led the dog. Literally and mentally. Everything else fell into place over the coming months.

People think CM is all about “dominating.” He is NOT. He is about providing sound, firm leadership. In the wild, dominant pack members will bite the necks of subordinants and hold them to the ground in submission. I have rarely needed to do that with my dogs, though on ocassion I have. Those mutleys know without any question that mamma is boss. As long as they abide by pack rules, everything is happy and sweet and nice. But if they want to fight over toys or try to plow me through a door way (they are all BIG dogs), they’re going to learn that mamma lays down some discipline. And they know it. They are not by ANY means scared of me. I wrestle on the floor with them and play frisbee and go on walks. But when I say enough - or no - that’s what I mean. They are very well adjusted, happy dogs.[/QUOTE]

Great post! I had a similar experience with a dropped off dog here although it was a she and she wasn’t the challenge yours was! She eventually got adopted out to her own family. She wasn’t aggressive but was SO fearful but once she had someone to look up to she was fine.

I don’t care what people want to call it, dominance, leadership, I’m bigger’nyou, there is a pecking order in dogs and wolves (and pretty much all animals!) and they go by it or they fight over it. If one dog or wolf refuses to submit they will fight until someone does or runs away or dies. That they are smart enough to make choices about it is perhaps something people used to not think much about. “Dominance” is also not always 100%. For example in cats one cat may control the food, one may control the litterboxes, one may control the prize sleeping place, etc.

[lovey1121]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5795797]
No, I didn’t direct my post at anyone, my comments were general.

I see the Parellis and CMs of the horse and dog world, that fly by the seat of their pants training, as such a waste of good training opportunities.
Here they have the skills to address audiences, to make horse and dog training interesting and get to the general public and what do they do?
They refuse, even make fun of standard training ideas and techniques, go with goofy and some unsafe training ways!

With all the information out there for grabs, why do they not LEARN a little bit of it and don’t do such clearly off things, like PP being rough and not changing when advised of it, or CM insisting on dominating dogs physically in ways we know are less than good training, etc.?

Sure, they make their kind of training work for them as entertainers, but don’t you feel sorry for the subjects, the horses and dogs that are pawns in their hands in ways they should not be, that we know better today?

Training is not rocket science, is learning a few basics and horses and dogs just melt in your hands, as any good trainer can tell you.

Our dog club lost last year to cancer one of our better, nicest trainers you ever knew.
That is who we sent those with serious aggression problems, that our classes could not accommodate.
Guess what, those dogs turned around for him without fireworks or rough handling of any kind.
Guess that kind of training would not make for interesting TV shows.

I would say that, after being at the receiving end of the general public surrendering dogs time and again and again to the animal control shelter for any and all reasons, I get anxious about not doing right for the dogs, best we can, training in ways that are not conductive to the dog remaining in their homes, on training with methods that have a good chance of causing more problems than they are trying to solve and the first CM shows I saw, he was doing just that.:([/QUOTE]

I understand where you’re coming from-I do. I just haven’t yet come across a dog/owner pair who went by CM techniques who were at the end of their ropes w/each other. No one has ever told me that they alpha-rolled their dogs as demonstrated by CM-those who did put their dogs on the ground usually got their info from the Monks. As I recall, of those who did drop their dogs, some said it helped, some were unsuccessful, but no one got bit or traumatized their dog in any noticeable way. BTW its not something I advocate.

The influence I see from Cesar is positive on the general public here in ubersuburbia. When I see dogs in backpacks, I know they’ve been watching:winkgrin:, and I see loose leads, brisk companionable walking, and owners walking w/a purpose…emphasis on the WALKING. When I visit the local dogparks on occasion, I see the usual crowd yapping and drinking coffee, oblivious to what havoc their dogs may be causing, plus some who are paying attention to their dogs and working to maintain harmony. Many of the latter enter the park w/calm(er)dogs, who enter after the owner passes thru the gate…CM trademark.

On the other hand, I have in the last 6 mos. gotten frantic calls for help from owners who were at wit’s end after training with 2 different “clicker” trainers. The story was basically the same-extreme frustration at the lack of true behavior modification in the simple everyday tasks like walking, passing other dogs, jumping on people, etc. One owner was contemplating sending her dog to some kind of boot camp, thinking that he was such a hard case (stupid, insanely hyperreactive, stubborn, aggressive) that he couldn’t be trained any other way. What did I find? A 5 mo.o.35# Lab X male NORMAL puppy…not hyperreactive, aggressive, or in the least bit stupid.

Both owners (decent, normal folks trying to do right by their dogs and paying good money for private lessons)stated that the previous trainer refused to address the lack of improvement in their dogs, saying that it would get better but not offering any alteration in prescribed practices. HMMM…I dont know either of these trainers personally and I wasn’t present at the lessons so will not judge, but… HHMMMM>>>>

So, when I think of CM, and his influence, I see calmer dogs out walking, trotting happily by Owner’s side. I do not see the same positive effect from Victoria Stillwell’s show.

I personally would love to see a show starring a premier OC trainer, addressing real problems like CM, and showing real improvement. Not neccessarily the overtly Cujo-esque dogs, but the mildly creepy:winkgrin:----the heel-nippers, the UPS attackers, the front-door bolters, the screendoor rippers etc. Someone here on COTH kindly shared a clicker fetch training video, which was an exciting revelation to me, (THANK YOU!:D)and I’d love to see more in that vein on public TV.

[Bluey]

You do realize that you may be assuming too much there, that maybe some of those well trained dogs you see may have been thru obedience classes, maybe even some clicker classes, not all, as you think CM watchers?
Also, some of those poorly trained dogs also may come from CM watchers?

We give all kinds of lessons to the public, from puppy, thru beginner obedience and agility, thru clicker classes and household manner, trick classes, therapy dog certification, etc.
We see it all and I can tell you, you can’t assume just from watching who learned what, they are good and better and bad owner-trainers coming from all kinds of situations.

One exception, you can sure tell is if someone had at one time before had some standard basic obedience education, because at least they know some basics on leash handling and asking their dogs for self control, which is a great start on further training.

The most important is to make clear that overall training is 24/7, although practicing exercises to learn to communicate with your dog can be as little as 5 minutes a day, if done right.