[QUOTE=jetsmom;5794753]
This thread wouldn’t be complete without this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpFRJ2S4BeA
And this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVcx8qX2jjM
and this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShB6MhdqJE
.[/QUOTE]
My fiancé, jokingly, does that to me when he wants my attention - “TSST!” and goes into the “see how that’s done? Just like that.” :lol:
Many of the latter enter the park w/calm(er)dogs, who enter after the owner passes thru the gate…CM trademark.
why do you assume this is a “CM” thing? around here MANY people have taken “control unleashed” classes, which are intended to turn reactive, unfocused dogs into calm, focused, well-behaved dogs. And even the general “puppy classes”, even those taught at Petsmart and such places, have lessons about getting your dog to be calm and controlled on leash and while going through doors.
In my opinion CM’s main influence was to dredge up concepts and ideas about dog behavior and dog training that were invented in the 1950’s and then discarded by the mainstream dog community in the early 1980’s in favor of more effective training methods.
lovey1121,
Now THIS is a dog trainer that impresses me: http://www.youtube.com/user/ahimsadog#p/u/0/eMc-zyNfRO0
The problem is, if the training is applied correctly, the dog is always working below threshold. No fireworks, and thus not good TV.
[QUOTE=lovey1121;5796322]
I personally would love to see a show starring a premier OC trainer, addressing real problems like CM, and showing real improvement. and I’d love to see more in that vein on public TV.[/QUOTE]
Read Syn’s blog by Sue Alisby.
http://sue-eh.ca/page24/blog-2/
Her puppy is not 6 (?) months old and very accomplished.
all clicker trained.
Her owner-trained service dog Stitch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ihrH6txiQ
if Sue can train to this level using food and a clicker. I have NO doubt she could defuse aggression using a clicker.
If you doubt that, go to Shirley Chong’s keeper page and scroll through to “defusing aggression using a clicker”.
[QUOTE=Bluey;5796348]
You do realize that you may be assuming too much there, that maybe some of those well trained dogs you see may have been thru obedience classes, maybe even some clicker classes, not all, as you think CM watchers?
Also, some of those poorly trained dogs also may come from CM watchers?;)"
Nope, I’m not–talking to the owners usually clears up any question. And yes, most of those “good” dogs have indeed had other training-I’ve inquired. My point is that many use CM-ese with no bad and many positive side effects, from what I’ve seen. And when I occasionally hear a “TSSSST” from an owner directed at his unheeding rampaging dog, I also attribute it to CM. But it isnt harming the dog-its simply ineffectual.
“We give all kinds of lessons to the public, from puppy, thru beginner obedience and agility, thru clicker classes and household manner, trick classes, therapy dog certification, etc.”
Me too.
“We see it all”
Me too.
“and I can tell you, you can’t assume just from watching who learned what, they are good and better and bad owner-trainers coming from all kinds of situations.”
Been here 52 yrs. - teaching and training(supporting myself) for 30. I know how my peers teach. They can spot my clients and I can spot theirs. 
Interesting what you took from my post-that I assume too much.
Here’s my point. Thread is called “Opinions of the DW”. Thread goes inevitably to bashing, with some thoughtful posts mixed in. I wanted to post my observations of the way the public at large is interpreting CM in my area.
I just haven’t seen any signs of trauma or harm-quite the contrary.
If someone here has a first-hand eyewitness account of a DW-gone wrong incident, please share.
I’ve been reading COTH forums for ever(first time my name was in COTH? 1975:D), though only posting recently. I’d like to think that you, Bluey, and 3dogpack and others are my peers and not my adversaries, and that we can give our opinions without ripping each other. We all want the same thing, to train dogs more joyfully, thoroughly, and to be able to impart that hard-earned knowledge to our clients. I’ve gotten great stuff from you and others-thank you. :)I’m always looking to get better./QUOTE]
[QUOTE=libgrrl;5796390]
lovey1121,
Now THIS is a dog trainer that impresses me: http://www.youtube.com/user/ahimsadog#p/u/0/eMc-zyNfRO0
The problem is, if the training is applied correctly, the dog is always working below threshold. No fireworks, and thus not good TV.[/QUOTE]
Thanks libgrrl-I will sit and watch these vid’s–looks good. Though I’m used to no fireworks-I ride dressage…nyuk nyuk nyuk
[QUOTE=threedogpack;5797249]
Read Syn’s blog by Sue Alisby.
http://sue-eh.ca/page24/blog-2/
Her puppy is not 6 (?) months old and very accomplished.
all clicker trained.
Her owner-trained service dog Stitch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ihrH6txiQ
if Sue can train to this level using food and a clicker. I have NO doubt she could defuse aggression using a clicker.
If you doubt that, go to Shirley Chong’s keeper page and scroll through to “defusing aggression using a clicker”.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for links, 3DP—I really appreciate them.
[QUOTE=lovey1121;5797270]
My first post came off too intense. Most of the time I simply try to refrain from even posting on these threads.
However, my opinion is that CM does do harm, or the potential for serious harm (the kind that can get a dog euthed) is really there. A few years ago, a friend recorded/taped/whatever, several episodes of DW for me. Most of them were things I could tolerate, but would not do…until the Viszla bitch. She was a trembling mess of reactive/fearful/guarding behaviors. Just watching her on her dog bed quivering made me gasp, I felt so sorry for her. The family consisted of Mom, Dad and 2 children, 12 and under. CM came on, gave her a pigs ear or rawhide or something to set her up for guarding and then proceeded to push her to the point of biting him. She punctured him several times.
that alone is wrong. To set an already miserable dog up to fail is not teaching her anything worthwhile. It is reinforcing her that people are not trust worthy.
He punished her every time she went for him, not even pausing when she did get him. How many people can do that? Especially with children in the house. She was a scary dog when pushed and I would have been terrified if that had been my kids and dog. When she shut down enough he took the pigs ear, then tried to hand it back to her and she completely turned her body away. That’s not really fixing the problem, it’s shutting the dog down and the issue is going to resurface.
that the issue is not resolved safely, is dangerous and it does do harm or leave the case with a high potential for harm.
and one more thing.
Clicker training (positive reinforcment) should not equal permissive. Permissive training can be dangerous as well. A dog who cannot stop counter surfing, guarding the couch, knocking the kids down, is in harms way of being relinquished/euthed.
training, in ALL species, needs to be thoughtful, and the theory behind it well understood before attempting to implement it.
I think that is the single biggest problem with most training today, people don’t understand how/why it works, so if it doesn’t work…they don’t know where it fell apart or how to fix it.
[quote=lovey1121;5797270]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluey
I’d like to think that you, Bluey, and 3dogpack and others are my peers and not my adversaries, and that we can give our opinions without ripping each other."—
Hey, I didn’t write that, hope it is clear, as then it was directed to me.
I too didn’t want to say anything either posting on this thread, but then thought, if we don’t speak up, people won’t learn to tell the difference between good, effective training and just winging it on the spur of the moment, as CM seems to do.
I don’t mean to confront anyone, but I do have my opinion about CM and it is not that favorable, from what I have seen.
I have not seen any of the later programs, the first ones were so bad they were hard to watch, so I quit.
Yes, Sue Ailsby is a very good trainer, has been to our club and given us seminars and tweaked how we train, worth watching her handle a dog too.
I am NOT a trainer, just helped with the club and classes, too busy with real life to consistently sign to teach classes, as I could not always be there reliably, so was assisting only when I could and of course participating in all kinds of classes and with putting on the shows.
Our club does has some excellent teachers and trainers and is very active in the community also.
A few of the club members are veterinarians, others full time dog trainers and those are the real professionals.
Explaining this so you don’t think I want to pass as a professional dog trainer.:eek:
What my point was in my comments is that, since I started training in 1973, even before our dog club formed in 1978 and in all the years since, training techniques have changed much and when operant conditioning started to become better known, it was a great advance to some facets of training.
For a professional in the dog world to ignore that kind of learning theory and how it works and how to apply it properly when desired is just unthinkable, like still using black and white film would be.
You miss sooooo much.
If CM doesn’t want to use any clicker training is irrelevant, because he can use that theory without using the techniques and would help him understand some of what he seems to be missing.
I think to be the best trainer you can be, be it horses or dogs or gerbils, you need to keep learning and keep changing as you learn and keep doing better and better.
Then, others like to stay with just one way and hope it keeps working.
I apologize, I tried to edit that to reflect it and did not do a good job.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;5797361]
[QUOTE=lovey1121;5797270]
My first post came off too intense. Most of the time I simply try to refrain from even posting on these threads.
However, my opinion is that CM does do harm, or the potential for serious harm (the kind that can get a dog euthed) is really there. A few years ago, a friend recorded/taped/whatever, several episodes of DW for me. Most of them were things I could tolerate, but would not do…until the Viszla bitch. She was a trembling mess of reactive/fearful/guarding behaviors. Just watching her on her dog bed quivering made me gasp, I felt so sorry for her. The family consisted of Mom, Dad and 2 children, 12 and under. CM came on, gave her a pigs ear or rawhide or something to set her up for guarding and then proceeded to push her to the point of biting him. She punctured him several times.
that alone is wrong. To set an already miserable dog up to fail is not teaching her anything worthwhile. It is reinforcing her that people are not trust worthy.
He punished her every time she went for him, not even pausing when she did get him. How many people can do that? Especially with children in the house. She was a scary dog when pushed and I would have been terrified if that had been my kids and dog.
When she shut down enough he took the pigs ear, then tried to hand it back to her and she completely turned her body away. That’s not really fixing the problem, it’s shutting the dog down and the issue is going to resurface.
that the issue is not resolved safely, is dangerous and it does do harm or leave the case with a high potential for harm.[/QUOTE]
I remember being appalled at that myself. And while no doubt there is someone out there dumb and arrogant enough to try an imitation of that scenario, I haven’t heard or read of any.
I am beginning to see why you and others object so strongly to the show. I suppose I liked some of his messages, (exercise, calm assertive energy, etc), and didnt foresee anyone dumb enough to try something like the above on their own dogs. And the fact that he works daily with dogs I personally would not feel equipped to handle gives me respect for him-honestly did not think of the masses trying to imitate him when it came to aggression. Scary thought. But I still haven’t heard of a directly-attributable-to-DW incident…the worst I’ve seen and heard(TSSSST)are some DW-inspired corrections not working.
[QUOTE=lovey1121;5797518]
[QUOTE=threedogpack;5797361]
I remember being appalled at that myself. And while no doubt there is someone out there dumb and arrogant enough to try an imitation of that scenario, I haven’t heard or read of any.
I am beginning to see why you and others object so strongly to the show. I suppose I liked some of his messages, (exercise, calm assertive energy, etc), and didnt foresee anyone dumb enough to try something like the above on their own dogs. And the fact that he works daily with dogs I personally would not feel equipped to handle gives me respect for him-honestly did not think of the masses trying to imitate him when it came to aggression. Scary thought. But I still haven’t heard of a directly-attributable-to-DW incident…the worst I’ve seen and heard(TSSSST)are some DW-inspired corrections not working.[/QUOTE]
There is a good example of CM type training gone wrong earlier in the thread about the foster dog due to be euthed.
I’ve also personally seen people try to do an “alpha roll” on a dog, either to punish or supposedly “show them who’s boss”. There is no benefit to doing that to a dog, and CM promotes it.
I never got the impression these people were going to try this themselves. The point of my posting that, was that his methods do have a very real chance of harming the people and/or dogs he deals with.
I suppose I liked some of his messages, (exercise, calm assertive energy, etc), and didnt foresee anyone dumb enough to try something like the above on their own dogs.
The family will probably never try this method themselves after seeing him bitten. But the dog had no other skills to replace the faulty ones with. So when CM left, what happened? Did the dog never again guard anything ever? Or did those behaviors gradually begin to resurface and what would the family have in their toolbox to address them? I never saw that he gave them any idea what to do if the dog regressed. Perhaps he did, but that would have been great for his ratings, so the fact that we did not see it, gives me pause. It has been my experience that unless you do what the trainer does…you do not get the same results. With that formula in mind, they cannot get the dog to “submit” without pushing it to bite and that is an unreasonable result.
And the fact that he works daily with dogs I personally would not feel equipped to handle gives me respect for him-
I respect that he has courage. I respect anyone who has courage. But there is a point of fool hardiness as well. Taking a bite, pushing a dog to the limit of biting is not courage, it’s foolish.
honestly did not think of the masses trying to imitate him when it came to aggression. Scary thought.
If they do not imitate him, and they admire him…how are they doing it and why are they watching him? Assuming they are training a dog.
But I still haven’t heard of a directly-attributable-to-DW incident…the worst I’ve seen and heard(TSSSST)are some DW-inspired corrections not working.
isn’t that direct?
[QUOTE=Bluey;5797485]
—[quote=lovey1121;5797270]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluey
I’d like to think that you, Bluey, and 3dogpack and others are my peers and not my adversaries, and that we can give our opinions without ripping each other."—
Hey, I didn’t write that, hope it is clear, as then it was directed to me.
I too didn’t want to say anything either posting on this thread, but then thought, if we don’t speak up, people won’t learn to tell the difference between good, effective training and just winging it on the spur of the moment, as CM seems to do.
I don’t mean to confront anyone, but I do have my opinion about CM and it is not that favorable, from what I have seen.
I have not seen any of the later programs, the first ones were so bad they were hard to watch, so I quit.
Yes, Sue Ailsby is a very good trainer, has been to our club and given us seminars and tweaked how we train, worth watching her handle a dog too.
I am NOT a trainer, just helped with the club and classes, too busy with real life to consistently sign to teach classes, as I could not always be there reliably, so was assisting only when I could and of course participating in all kinds of classes and with putting on the shows.
Our club does has some excellent teachers and trainers and is very active in the community also.
A few of the club members are veterinarians, others full time dog trainers and those are the real professionals.
Explaining this so you don’t think I want to pass as a professional dog trainer.:eek:
What my point was in my comments is that, since I started training in 1973, even before our dog club formed in 1978 and in all the years since, training techniques have changed much and when operant conditioning started to become better known, it was a great advance to some facets of training.
For a professional in the dog world to ignore that kind of learning theory and how it works and how to apply it properly when desired is just unthinkable, like still using black and white film would be.
You miss sooooo much.
If CM doesn’t want to use any clicker training is irrelevant, because he can use that theory without using the techniques and would help him understand some of what he seems to be missing.
I think to be the best trainer you can be, be it horses or dogs or gerbils, you need to keep learning and keep changing as you learn and keep doing better and better.
Then, others like to stay with just one way and hope it keeps working.;)[/QUOTE]
THIS is why COTH is the only forum I read. Thank you for explaining more fully where you’re coming from. I am truly learning from you guys.
I get where you’re coming from, Bluey. Training certainly has come a very long way from the early 80’s when I started w/my first dog-people ask how I got into this fine mess and I tell them how my 1st dog, a 1 1/2 y.o.male intact Shep/husky X, used to pee on my leg on walks if he saw anything to get excited about—how can you not do anything about that???
I think that there is a significant difference betw/people like you and me, who make dogs our life, and folks who just have a dog. They rarely read books, go to clinics or seminars, and often only call for help when things are bad. These folks make up 2/3 of my lesson business. I must give concrete help quickly, and HOOK them, or they lose interest in their dog. And guess who suffers. We both know that marching around heeling for an hour a day isnt happening w/the mom w/kids and a job. SO I look for ways to have them become the leader(yes, Leader-evil word to some here–if you’re not a leader, you’re the dog’s follower) throughout the day in small short spurts, so they see improvement fairly quickly. Otherwise they give up. Its all about the dog.
I have lots of dog trainers in me. I have Bill Koehler(1st dog class I took Mr Macho to made it mandatory reading), Pat McConnell, some Volhard, Karen Pryor, retriever trainers, S+R,etc etc etc. I guess I now have some CM in me, too…I’m happy and grateful for that.
On more recent DW shows, I’ve seen more positive reinforcement—everyone can learn, and I believe that HE believes he is doing the best he can for the dogs., and he cant help but be aware of the disapproval of many of his peers.
PS-I also definitely have some of my Grandma in me, too-family legend has it that she was on the floor playing with her dog, and he bit her. She promptly bit him back. You dont mess with a Litvak from Queens.
[QUOTE=threedogpack;5797593]
I never got the impression these people were going to try this themselves.
If they do not imitate him, and they admire him…how are they doing it and why are they watching him? Assuming they are training a dog.
isn’t that direct?[/QUOTE] I’m sorry, I don’t understand your logic. I avidly watch World Cup downhill skiing - I am not shushhing down the blk. diamond at Kitzbuhel any time ever.
Sorry- isn’t what direct? A failed correction? I was thinking of something a good bit more dramatic than a noise unheeded. Pardon me if I wasn’t clear-so many posts here speak of someone actually imitating him and the tragedy that might happen. If the worst that happens is a blown-off command or correction, then that aint so bad in my book. I believe everyone has had a dog blow them off at some time :winkgrin: Happens to me every day… :yes::yes:
I just want to thank you 3dp and Bluey for discussing this with me, as its been on my mind for a while. I look forward to learning more from you guys and other PR/OC advocates.
Now I gotta go-I have a 1st lesson w/a little 9 wk.old yellow field Lab girl–fun and easy!
if they have a dog they are training, and they watch the show, are they doing it to learn from him or not?
Sorry- isn’t what direct? A failed correction? I was thinking of something a good bit more dramatic than a noise unheeded.
the fact this dog (probably) wasn’t fixed and she bit him. Is that direct enough that it isn’t effective?
Pardon me if I wasn’t clear-so many posts here speak of someone actually imitating him and the tragedy that might happen.
I also was not clear. MOST of the people here have dogs who are not at either spectrum pleasant-to-overthetop aggressive. THOSE are the ones who may experience a tragedy if they attempt to do what he does.
eta: UGGGG! I am having enough trouble communicating, I should stop for today. What I meant to say is that those at the upper end of aggression who try what he does may experience failure and tragedy.
sorry
If the worst that happens is a blown-off command or correction, then that aint so bad in my book.
and if that is all that happens good for them.
I get what you’re saying: If a dog is doing something unwanted and you address it using positive reinforcement techniques, there’s no harm and a very good chance it can help. If a dog is doing something wrong and you treat it like an attempt at dominance, you could very easily end up pushing a dog who’s acting out from anxiety or fear into a panic state where he bites.
Frankly, current research show no evidence that dogs try to dominate humans. So trying to address “dominance” is useless at best, and can be very dangerous at worst.
[QUOTE=dogchushu;5797804]
I get what you’re saying: If a dog is doing something unwanted and you address it using positive reinforcement techniques, there’s no harm and a very good chance it can help. If a dog is doing something wrong and you treat it like an attempt at dominance, you could very easily end up pushing a dog who’s acting out from anxiety or fear into a panic state where he bites.
Frankly, current research show no evidence that dogs try to dominate humans. So trying to address “dominance” is useless at best, and can be very dangerous at worst.[/QUOTE]
Pat McConnel had some seminars on aggression for veterinarians, vet assistents and instructors and I participated in some.
That is what she was talking about, that we had to address the dogs as the dogs they were interacting with the humans we are, not try to imagine a pack where both are dogs and try to see who comes on top.:eek:
The reasoning on every dog used for demonstration was individual to that dog and several different possibilities and modes of addressing the problems were presented.
Training dogs is a very fluid situation and the good trainers are those that can flow with it, not depend on some rules that just are not always applicable from our human point of view and probably don’t make sense to the dog.
That is what I saw the few times I watched CM, he really didn’t seem to consider the dog itself, but the idea he had of what that dog was supposed to be and was trying to make it be and act as the dog he wanted, that really was not what dogs are.
He confuses the dogs and they learn from him by adapting to that confusing situation, not by learning to communicate, just follow senseless behaviors asked of them.
THAT is an important difference, with operant conditioning, you have a thinking and participating dog, then you shape that motivation into both of you following a script toward’s certain behaviors the human wants and the dog works it’s heart to figure and offer.
There is a whole set of studies showing why using clickers and treats is a very good technique, but of course you can do the same without those, other markers and rewards are fine also, as long as the dog understand what you are doing and appreciates them.
We used to call operant conditioning “letting the genie out of the bottle”, because the human then has to step up and provide the dog with more and more to do and achieve.
You have to work hard at training then, but it is fun and also rewarding to the human to have such intense pupil.
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