Cesar Milan - opinions of the Dog Whisperer

[QUOTE=dogchushu;5797804]
I get what you’re saying: If a dog is doing something unwanted and you address it using positive reinforcement techniques, there’s no harm and a very good chance it can help. If a dog is doing something wrong and you treat it like an attempt at dominance, you could very easily end up pushing a dog who’s acting out from anxiety or fear into a panic state where he bites.

Frankly, current research show no evidence that dogs try to dominate humans. So trying to address “dominance” is useless at best, and can be very dangerous at worst.[/QUOTE]

thank you!

[QUOTE=Bluey;5797838]
but of course you can do the same without those, other markers and rewards are fine also, as long as the dog understand what you are doing and appreciates them[/QUOTE]

and as long as the dog is willing to work for them (or is this what you meant by appreciates them?). The reason punishment works as well is because almost universally, animals (including people) are willing to work to avoid it. The most common reason people find treat based reward training does not work, is because they use treats that are low value or the dog is not food motivated.

The problem with punishment based methods is that there must be precise timing or the training subject does not make the connection. If they recieve too many corrections without understanding, you shut them down.

Both methods work, and I’ve used both. As I have become more sophisticated and fluent…the clicker and treats are easier, faster (for me) and more pleasant.

keep in mind that “reinforcement-based” training doesn’t necessarily mean treats. Many dogs would rather work for toys, or praise, or petting, or games; and most good trainers incorporate “life rewards”, things the dogs wants now (like going outside or getting supper or being allowed on the couch) into training.

CM’s “training” is, in general, based on old-fashioned “voodoo dominance rituals”. These are petty little behaviors that one is told to engage in on a regular basis that will, somehow, convince the dog you are “dominant” over the dog, and the idea is that if you can continually convince the dog you are “dominant” the dog will, mysteriously, somehow get “trained”. These ritual behaviors include things like: standing up straight, never letting the dog walk in front of you, never letting the dog go out doors before you, never letting the dog eat before you do, one’s attitude of purpose (CM’s “energy”), and some go so far as to insist you never let the dog’s head be higher than one’s own head. The idea is that you must constantly engage in these rituals or the dog will attempt to “seize control”. This concept was totally debunked decades ago- dogs don’t go around trying to challenge humans for “dominance”, nor do they understand the purpose of these “rituals”. The primary effect of engaging in these rituals, most of which are traditionally enforced by using punishment and force, is to produce a shut-down dog- one who is confused and scared to the point of not-doing-much. What CM calls “calm submissive”, which is NOT a desirable state for a dog.
Anyway, whether or not you manage to convince your dog you are “dominant” doesn’t mean much when it comes to dog behavior. You can be the most “dominant” person around and I can assure you it won’t improve your dog’s understanding of basic obedience commands OR basic manners. Only training does that. Might as well just use your time on training and forget about the “voodoo dominance rituals”.
One of the key aspects of training is called “proofing”- teaching the dog that variations in environment don’t matter, the command is all that matters. “proofing” means the dog obeys you no matter what. A “proofed” dog will heel even if you are slouching and ignoring the dog in favor of chatting on your phone. A “proofed” dog will sit and stay even if you are lying on the floor. A dog “trained” using “dominance rituals” won’t because they learned the human aggressive body posturing is part of the “cue” to behave in certain ways.

[QUOTE=wendy;5798558]
keep in mind that “reinforcement-based” training doesn’t necessarily mean treats. Many dogs would rather work for toys, or praise, or petting, or games; and most good trainers incorporate “life rewards”, things the dogs wants now (like going outside or getting supper or being allowed on the couch) into training.

CM’s “training” is, in general, based on old-fashioned “voodoo dominance rituals”. These are petty little behaviors that one is told to engage in on a regular basis that will, somehow, convince the dog you are “dominant” over the dog, and the idea is that if you can continually convince the dog you are “dominant” the dog will, mysteriously, somehow get “trained”. These ritual behaviors include things like: standing up straight, never letting the dog walk in front of you, never letting the dog go out doors before you, never letting the dog eat before you do, one’s attitude of purpose (CM’s “energy”), and some go so far as to insist you never let the dog’s head be higher than one’s own head. The idea is that you must constantly engage in these rituals or the dog will attempt to “seize control”. This concept was totally debunked decades ago- dogs don’t go around trying to challenge humans for “dominance”, nor do they understand the purpose of these “rituals”. The primary effect of engaging in these rituals, most of which are traditionally enforced by using punishment and force, is to produce a shut-down dog- one who is confused and scared to the point of not-doing-much. What CM calls “calm submissive”, which is NOT a desirable state for a dog.
Anyway, whether or not you manage to convince your dog you are “dominant” doesn’t mean much when it comes to dog behavior. You can be the most “dominant” person around and I can assure you it won’t improve your dog’s understanding of basic obedience commands OR basic manners. Only training does that. Might as well just use your time on training and forget about the “voodoo dominance rituals”.
One of the key aspects of training is called “proofing”- teaching the dog that variations in environment don’t matter, the command is all that matters. “proofing” means the dog obeys you no matter what. A “proofed” dog will heel even if you are slouching and ignoring the dog in favor of chatting on your phone. A “proofed” dog will sit and stay even if you are lying on the floor. A dog “trained” using “dominance rituals” won’t because they learned the human aggressive body posturing is part of the “cue” to behave in certain ways.[/QUOTE]

Very good explanation, thank you.:cool:

I think it was in the mid 80’s when Bob Bailey and others started explaining these theories.
Before, the good, sensible trainers were already using something similar naturally, just didn’t put it together as a theory of learning.

Slowly, as that kind of greater understanding of more diverse ways of communicating with our dogs were explored, we learned where we had been assuming big time and, as CM still does today, we were really barking up the wrong tree.

Sometimes, what seems to make sense to us, it is, if we really think this thru and watch our dogs, not at all the way the dog is understanding it.

Thank you for explaining those theories so clearly.:slight_smile:

[QUOTE=wendy;5798558]
keep in mind that “reinforcement-based” training doesn’t necessarily mean treats. Many dogs would rather work for toys, or praise, or petting, or games; and most good trainers incorporate “life rewards”, things the dogs wants now (like going outside or getting supper or being allowed on the couch) into training.

CM’s “training” is, in general, based on old-fashioned “voodoo dominance rituals”. These are petty little behaviors that one is told to engage in on a regular basis that will, somehow, convince the dog you are “dominant” over the dog, and the idea is that if you can continually convince the dog you are “dominant” the dog will, mysteriously, somehow get “trained”. These ritual behaviors include things like: standing up straight, never letting the dog walk in front of you, never letting the dog go out doors before you, never letting the dog eat before you do, one’s attitude of purpose (CM’s “energy”), and some go so far as to insist you never let the dog’s head be higher than one’s own head. The idea is that you must constantly engage in these rituals or the dog will attempt to “seize control”. This concept was totally debunked decades ago- dogs don’t go around trying to challenge humans for “dominance”, nor do they understand the purpose of these “rituals”. The primary effect of engaging in these rituals, most of which are traditionally enforced by using punishment and force, is to produce a shut-down dog- one who is confused and scared to the point of not-doing-much. What CM calls “calm submissive”, which is NOT a desirable state for a dog.
Anyway, whether or not you manage to convince your dog you are “dominant” doesn’t mean much when it comes to dog behavior. You can be the most “dominant” person around and I can assure you it won’t improve your dog’s understanding of basic obedience commands OR basic manners. Only training does that. Might as well just use your time on training and forget about the “voodoo dominance rituals”.
One of the key aspects of training is called “proofing”- teaching the dog that variations in environment don’t matter, the command is all that matters. “proofing” means the dog obeys you no matter what. A “proofed” dog will heel even if you are slouching and ignoring the dog in favor of chatting on your phone. A “proofed” dog will sit and stay even if you are lying on the floor. A dog “trained” using “dominance rituals” won’t because they learned the human aggressive body posturing is part of the “cue” to behave in certain ways.[/QUOTE]

excellent explaination!

Most of us simply couldn’t be bothered with the “never let the dog do (something)”
methods. We just want to get along with our faithful companions and enjoy them.
CM’s show is about extreme behaviour the likes of which most of us would never have to contend with or would never have let escalate to that extreme.

I find him more likeable than the other dog trainer on tv who talks down to his clients so mercilessly and then they all hug at the end!

Exactly.

By the time a family seeks out the services of CM and tries to get on his TV show fergodsake, the problem has escalated way beyond what they are able to fix or get help for locally.

Also people should realize that there truly are situations where a dog has ZERO interest in “positive rewards” because their fear, anxiety, or energy level is WAY too high and out of control. When they reach that point, they truly need LEADERSHIP. Not punishment or discipline, but just plain old calm assertive energy and leadership.

The first time we met our Weim, the rescue group foster lady met us at a dog park (for the record, I despise dog parks). That poor dog was so overwhelmed and panicked, all she could do was literally try to climb up the guy’s body to sit on his shoulders. And this was an 80 pound dog. I had never seen a dog with THAT level of terror going on. It was truly frightening. We never did get near her and were not able to touch her. There was aboslutely NO way that treats or petting would have helped her in that situation. Her fosters were offering her very little support. They just kept cooing and petting and hovering over her. You could see how scared they were that they would lose control of her, she would bolt and bite someone, or whatever. They were crawling in their skin they were so uncomfortable. They just wanted to get out of there and get the dog back in the car.

We agreed to adopt her even though she behaved that way because we could tell that the dog needed a real leader. Someone who was calm and assertive, and firm but gentle and compassionate. She is a GREAT dog and she transitioned into our family seamlessly but the dog really needs a firm, consistent strong leader. She HAS to know that you are in charge. The tiniest bit of stress makes her flightly and nipppy and she refuses even the yummiest meaty treat in those situations. But she does respond positively to a human who stands firm and calm and maintains a calm energy level.

So sure if you’re teaching a dog to get their nails clipped or shake hands, positive clicker training and treats is wonderful. But when there is a real mental fear going on, it’s no time for treats and coddling.

“So sure if you’re teaching a dog to get their nails clipped or shake hands, positive clicker training and treats is wonderful. But when there is a real mental fear going on, it’s no time for treats and coddling.”

if the dog is over threshold, your calm/assertive energy is not going to work either. If the dog is responding, it’s probably more that the behavior chain of x/y/z is familiar and thus reassuring.

There is a reason food is used, it can help to lower the adrenalin dump that happens when fear appears. Ideally it needs to be used prior to the adrenalin dump.

this http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/adrenalin.txt

[QUOTE=Sonesta;5791005]
CM mostly deals with dogs with VERY serious behavioral problems. Dogs that are sort of being given one last chance.

And he is good at that.

He is NOT a trainer. He doesn’t pretend to be.

He is a rehabilitator. And I respect him very much.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

A2

i have a reactive bull terrier. yes, when she goes over the edge, waiving a trait in her face doesn’t help, but at that point neither would a shock collar or any other form of physical pain. the key is to interrupt that behavior before she goes over the edge. same deal when working with her v. strong prey drive.

no one recommends you coddle a reactive dog while it’s reacting. but infliction of physical pain or fear is certainly NOT going to make the situation any better…:no:

i know of a bull terrier with similar issues to my dog’s that CM went to fix. the tv episode didn’t show how the dog’s behavior deteriorated after CM’s “intervention.” eventually the owners gave the dog away. one more proof that you shouldn’t believe everything you see on TV…

i wholeheartedly agree with everything threedogpack has posted on this subject.

It is true that dogs don’t go around challenging people. They are pretty much size the situation up and either take over the top dog position or accept the person as top dog (i.e. the Leader). Getting that position back once a dog has taken it can be very difficult!

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;5800847]
Exactly.

By the time a family seeks out the services of CM and tries to get on his TV show fergodsake, the problem has escalated way beyond what they are able to fix or get help for locally.

Also people should realize that there truly are situations where a dog has ZERO interest in “positive rewards” because their fear, anxiety, or energy level is WAY too high and out of control. When they reach that point, they truly need LEADERSHIP. Not punishment or discipline, but just plain old calm assertive energy and leadership.

The first time we met our Weim, the rescue group foster lady met us at a dog park (for the record, I despise dog parks). That poor dog was so overwhelmed and panicked, all she could do was literally try to climb up the guy’s body to sit on his shoulders. And this was an 80 pound dog. I had never seen a dog with THAT level of terror going on. It was truly frightening. We never did get near her and were not able to touch her. There was aboslutely NO way that treats or petting would have helped her in that situation. Her fosters were offering her very little support. They just kept cooing and petting and hovering over her. You could see how scared they were that they would lose control of her, she would bolt and bite someone, or whatever. They were crawling in their skin they were so uncomfortable. They just wanted to get out of there and get the dog back in the car.

We agreed to adopt her even though she behaved that way because we could tell that the dog needed a real leader. Someone who was calm and assertive, and firm but gentle and compassionate. She is a GREAT dog and she transitioned into our family seamlessly but the dog really needs a firm, consistent strong leader. She HAS to know that you are in charge. The tiniest bit of stress makes her flightly and nipppy and she refuses even the yummiest meaty treat in those situations. But she does respond positively to a human who stands firm and calm and maintains a calm energy level.

So sure if you’re teaching a dog to get their nails clipped or shake hands, positive clicker training and treats is wonderful. But when there is a real mental fear going on, it’s no time for treats and coddling.[/QUOTE]

Positive reinforcement training and coddling are two completely different things.

[QUOTE=JustTrails;5790366]
So I know the opinion on COTH of The Horse Whisperer is not high, but how about The Dog Whisperer - Cesar Milan? Is he considered knowledgeable, methods workeable? I need some work with my dog, but nothing I feel I can’t handle myself with the right guidance.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

His methods are based on a flawed presumption that his dogs think he’s a dog. Or that there is a linear hierarchy of “pecking order” in a group of domestic dogs. Animal behavior studies do not support his claims.

He might make his methods look good on TV. However, he has good timing - and the benefit of the editing power of television. You, the individual dog owner, will be working with neither.

I have serious concerns about some of his tactics. He tries to force submission by pinning the dog, flooding technique, or a high level of corrections. This could work for some dogs. For other dogs, it can make matters worse. Sometimes the owner can get the undesirable behavior to go away, but then the dog starts having other inappropriate behaviors (displacement behaviors).

I am a big fan of positive based training for dogs, even “difficult” ones. Part of that approach will be to teach the dog owner about the dog’s excitement level (reading it, controlling it). Positive based training includes Clicker Training, which is something a boatload of dog training books and videos are based on. And despite some misconceptions, clicker training does not “coddle”, “spoil”, or “bribe” a dog. It’s used to train top agility, scenting, guide, and obedience dogs.

Here’s what I’d suggest: Seek out a CPDT or KPA trainer, for either one-on-one or group classes:
http://www.ccpdt.org/
http://www.karenpryoracademy.com/find-a-trainer

You guys just love to rip people apart. I often find it amusing; sometimes troubling.

I think the DW is terribly entertaining. Why? Oh right, its entertainment! If you dont like it, dont watch it.

What I see of CM (as do the rest of you as well, unless you know him personally - which I didn’t gather from reading these posts) is only what is edited for a TV show to render the most entertainment and highest ratings.

I’m sure things go on behind the camera…or are edited out. What you watch in 20 mins, probably took 12 hours or more to shoot.

I’m sure there are dogs he went to fix where it didnt work out and those cases never made it to production.

He is not a God. I doubt he thinks of himself as such…or maybe he does. But who cares?

What I can tell you is that I agree with some of what he preaches and have applied it to my dogs and others in the past and present. And 100% of the time it has worked out for the better.

And thats all I have to go on.

But if clicker training works for you, by all means keep it up!

More than one method can be effective :yes: and what works great for one dog may not work at all for another, but that doesn’t mean it should be discounted.

I’m pretty sure if CM was a monster who had no business owning or working with dogs that probably would have been addressed by now.

I dunno, his dogs look pretty happy to me…am I missing something :confused:

Oh, I know, they must be drugged! :lol:

wcporter - great post. I agree. I use a mix of CM and Patricia McConnel, depending on the dog and the circumstance. My hound is extremely stubborn and strong willed. That is a dog that will stare you in the eyeball and take the garbage out of the can and dare you to do something about it. The Pit is a love bug who wants to do the right thing and would never DREAM of doing something naughty for fear of upsetting his human. The Weim is sort of a mix between the two. I do not treat them all the same way. I use whatever works in the given situation.

marta - where in the hell did I mention anything about a shock collar? Good grief. Calm, assertive energy and shock collar are NOT the same thing. I would not use a shock collar on your bull terrier either. I never implied one should be used.

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5790834]
no he is not. He’s a dude with a TV show.[/QUOTE]

AMEN!!!
I’ve watched his show. Generally the dogs/owners he uses are so messed up. The people he uses should likely own cats not dogs. I watch and am amazed that people allow behavior get to the point it gets to and that simple common sense and a trainer and or behaviourist would have corrected behaviour before needing CM.
ALSO His show comes with the disclaimer that nopne of his “techniques” should be tried without a professional…

I was going to let this go, but just can’t.

A2, what, exactly, is calm assertive energy? I don’t get this anymore than I do the whole dominance thing.

I deal in behavior I can see and modify. I don’t really deal in things like what a dog is thinking…I can’t fathom half of what PEOPLE are thinking and they are the same species, let alone what a dog who probably sees most of his world through his nose is thinking.

wcporter: I don’t tear anyone apart. I simply state what I see. CM has some good points and what he does seems to work for HIM, but it really doesn’t transfer to others. That is where I have a problem with him being so widely watched.

I think… I get what he thinks calm submissive is. Tail low and wagging, head low, ears back… faux pliable
Calm assertive is no emotion but “dominant” behavior.

It’s different. He is more about posturing and blocking than he is about training. Wouldn’t one rather train than posture?

I was watching a show on tv with the actor who plays Doc Martin and he went around looking at different horse people around the world exploring the bond - he was with police horses and the instructor used the expression “Calm assertive energy”, so I guess she knew what it meant.

Did anyone see CM on CBS Sunday morning. Leslie Stahl interviewed him. He did go on a little bit about reading energy, etc. But I think the core of his message is that he tries to train the owners, and that a lot of dog problems are because of the owners and that a lot of dog problems can be related to lack of exercise. Anyway, it was basically a lot of the stuff that we talk about here on the board…