Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Scribbler]

@blue_heron

In R+, you focus on shaping the behavior, so you might mark and reward for an effort of getting on the trailer. It does work, but it’s not for everyone. And it is particularly challenging under saddle.

I also agree with @sascha that it’s a commitment and great for horses you will have a long term relationship with. I typically don’t use it with client horses or horses I only work with 30-90 days.

I wouldn’t try R plus if the owner wasn’t committed to it. It’s just going to cause problems and disappoint the horse. It’s also amazing how many horse owners don’t have the timing and intuition to shape a behavior.

As far as when you reward, you need a plan and you need to decide how to build up to a behavior. You might very well have a plan that has stages. Stand quietly at the bottom of the ramp. Put one foot on the ramp. Put two feet on the ramp. Stand on the ramp. Etc. Also you could incorporate following a target stick up the ramp if the horse understands that. Or standing on circus boxes away from the trailer.

Depending on the depth of the behavior you want to change, it might take many sessions to change how the horse responds to the trailer. And you can’t give up and revert to pressure without undoing your work. You need to change how the horse feels about the situation.

Not every horse is ready for clicker training, but absolutely done right it can stop them being mouthy and pushy

[CanteringCarrot]

@rothmpp

@DownYonder

Did she actually hit the horse with that stroke?

I do believe the some of the sound we are hearing from the long side is the lash hitting the kick boards. Not that it makes the double handed use and continued use of the whip acceptable - just offering my observation. She also appears to hit the horse on the shoulders as well down the long side. Very counter productive to getting the horse forward.

Yeah, the whole thing made me say, “WTF” but the hitting on the shoulders really got me.

[FitzE]

@rothmpp

You mean the foreign working students essentially being held hostage by CP? Those people? The ones who said he was holding their passports for “safekeeping”? Yes, they are adults, but under all kinds of stressors.

But here it’s okay to demand a 16 year old did what these adults did not do, her stressors be damned? Sorry, that double standard does not work for me.

@rothmpp

I’ve found it interesting that the Department of Labor has not dug into this

Good point and maybe that could be the thing that shuts him down for good.

[meupatdoes]

@Scribbler

It’s also amazing how many horse owners don’t have the timing and intuition to shape a behavior.

I once watched my high school friend’s parents, very intelligent, Ivy league educated people with advanced degrees, use the clicker to GET their dogs attention. Ie they were using the clicker essentially as the command itself.

I had to really break down the training frames into smaller slices with them to get them to understand. Much smaller slices than was necessary for the dog to understand.

[MinnesotanSoil]

It’s out and every bit as horrendous as I imagined. Shame on her. Never have I ever seen someone swing a lunge whip like a baseball bat.

[rothmpp]

@FitzE

But here it’s okay to demand a 16 year old did what these adults did not do, her stressors be damned? Sorry, that double standard does not work for me.

Maybe you’re confusing me with some other posters? I’ve said several times that those people demanding the rider’s head on a spit need to remember this is a kid.

[sascha]

@Bogey2

they are all well behaved because I am not shoving carrots in their mouth constantly, two were stallions who would be nippy if I treat trained them.

They were well behaved because you set and maintained boundaries. Stallions also can be treat trained, but you’d best be sure to maintain all boundaries at all times.

Best treat training story for me is an orphan a-hole who came to me absolutely dangerous. Nothing worked. And then I decided to risk my digits and reward him for a small task completed with a tiny mint. I’m not going to say I could ever comfortably turn my back on that horse, but he became pretty much instantly manageable when he started getting a paycheque. That was over 25 years ago and I haven’t turned back.

My stallion? Same deal without the orphan a-hole personality. “Paycheque? Sure, actually I do understand what you’re asking and am quite happy to comply. Why did it take you so long to figure out that a nice tone of voice and a little pet was insufficient. Jeeze, but humans are dumb.”

Was everything candy and roses with both those (and my current one who came as a rearer/biter) horses? Nope, there was plenty of discipline, but a large chunk of all their training had a paycheque attached because it works really, really well.

[meupatdoes]

@Rumorhasit93

She did this with Vinton Karrasch, the trainer I mentioned above that I rode with. According to the poster I replied to, that’s not “upper level” enough for them

Well, upthread we learned that Lendon Gray didnt go to enough Olympics to be upper level enough so what even is?

[DownYonder]

@jcc813

“If she wanted to release this at the worst possible time, she would have done it during or after the Olympics. That would’ve been the worst scenario for the British team – at least now they have an alternate that can come in and it doesn’t harm them that much."

What a stupid reply (not you, the attorney). GB’s alternate is nowhere near the same caliber of rider that CD is. GB had a chance of medaling with CD on the team - maybe even topping the podium. Now their chances of medaling are much less and anyone that knows anything about dressage understands that. I am in no way condoning what CD did though, and I hope I will have to eat my hat if GB manages to medal in Paris without her.

[Dressurfrau]

Does anyone know where this video took place?

[Ghazzu]

@blue_heron

Horses don’t really understand kindness.

As the emotional support veterinarian for a friend’s half-Arab with a case of PTSD from former “trainer’s” methods, I can categorically say this is not true.
They may, and likely do understand it differently, but they understand it.

[Bonnie2]

Awesome post. Something I try to live but never could have put in words. Thank you!

[DownYonder]

@FitzE

@Scribbler

I see the whipping rising out of riding on death grip contact,

Didn’t someone here quote CDJ as saying ‘short reins win medals’ or something like that?

@sascha

“Short reins win gold medals” is a well-known and oft-repeated CDJism.

Yet I well remember when CDJ first became a sensation with Valegro, how everyone - even a very, very, very well known BNT 5* judge - felt she always rode with her reins a bit too long.

So CDJ believes that short reins win gold medals, yet she herself rides with reins too long.

[TimeForAHorse]

You absolutely can “treat train” them! The two colts on my property that I basically clicker-trained to “loose leash walk” exactly like I would a dog are the best-behaved, most easily-lead horses on the farm. Their lead ropes are pretty much just for decoration/safety fallback in most cases.

BUT - to do so takes a little more understanding of positive reinforcement (like using a marker signal and holding criteria) than one may initially think. It’s a tough mindset shift if you haven’t been exposed to those ideas before. If you’re ever interested, I’d love to chat R+ strategies or point you towards some resources!

[FitzE]

Apologies, I meant in general people shouting about the 16 year old with her ass in the saddle deserving equal response to the adult swinging the whip with both hands, along with all the ‘why wait’ posts, etc.

[axl]

@meupatdoes

bahohoo

I know it’s absurd, but is this a word you use? How do you pronounce it? I usually type #&$^#&$^ something like this, so I’m dying to know if this is an actual term?

[sascha]

@DownYonder

Yet I well remember when CDJ first became a sensation with Valegro, how everyone - even a very, very, very well known BNT 5* judge - felt she always rode with her reins a bit too long.

I don’t remember that at all. <>

[Bristol_Bay]

@meupatdoes

I have to honestly say that it is unclear to me the extent to which she is actually making contact with the horse vs just snapping the popper.

99% of the world is not going to be familiar enough with longe whips to know that you can make essentially the exact same sound without touching the horse just by snapping the popper, and they will think that each sound is from the lash making contact with the horse.

To me it is honestly unclear how much she is actually making contact with the horse, but I have to say the horse’s reaction looks -to me- more like he is responding to the snap of the popper. If you whaled a horse that hard for the lash to be cracking on him that loud wouldn’t the kid be in the rafters?

Still not saying the video is fantastic and its still much worse than I was expecting from her, and if she IS making physical contact that hard it’s egregious, but I’m glad at least one other person has raised this question.

This was my thinking also. I look forward to the results of the investigation as to whether what we’re seeing is pointless terrorizing of the horse, or a scene from Billy Budd. I really can’t tell.

This video also reminds me of why I don’t miss dressage lessons. The endless circles, my god. Get your horse forward with a little hand gallop; it’s not that hard.

[meupatdoes]

Its a slang term basically equivalent to bejesus.

I say “bah” (like bah humbug) “hoo hoo” (“hoo” like “who”).

I should have spelled it bahoohoo, not bahohoo.

[DownYonder]

@Jealoushe

It appears like she does but even if the whip doesn’t make contact the horse is extremely stressed and terrified. Horses don’t learn in that state and Charlotte knows that. It’s cruel to torture a kind animal of prey this way.

Interesting, to me the horse doesn’t appear particularly terrified. It is for sure hard to say from watching a short video clip, but he rather struck me as sort of a mellow, rather amiable good old boy type who was maybe a bit slow with the hind legs, and he really just wanted to be left alone to do things his own way and was annoyed at being chased by someone with a whip, and esp. annoyed when the whip hit him - and that is really the only times I saw any flashes of temper from him (which I don’t blame him for). He didn’t strike me as truly terrified or po’d - otherwise I think he might have done something truly dangerous that resulted in injury to his rider. He instead just seemed irritated that someone was expecting him to work harder than he wanted to.