Good Post.
2 Likes
Absolutely not disagreeing with the premise. The problem is what constitutes abuse; what constitutes horse welfare? And who decides? I personally feel that horse people and organizations need to make welfare statements that are clear and thorough. That may take a year or two.
Why? Because bits, in of themselves, when properly used are not abusive - contrary to what some say. Whips, when properly used, are not abusive. Stabling a horse is not abusive. Shoes on a horse are not abusive. Smacking a horse is not (necessarily) abusive. Riding and/or jumping a horse is not abusive. All can be, and have been, even when not, described as abusive by various folks on SM.
23 Likes
Shawna Karrasch, actually. Iāve worked with her a bunch!
5 Likes
Yep. Exhibit A. Andy Kocherā¦his business is thriving still.
12 Likes
Then police yourselves. Stop with the be kinder. An amateur rider with some hint of experience can see this is blatantly wrong, the horse is confused and shutting down - she is getting the complete opposite effect of what she is asking for. She already knows better, so violence was a choice. This very much deserves to be brought out in the open. She is the one who should ādo betterā.
13 Likes
Have someone crack a decent quality longe whip hard on your tall boot. A crack with considerable force behind it is going to make plenty of noise.
2 Likes
I look back over my years of riding and see many times that I should have done better.
I hope this isnāt the end of CDās riding career. She can do better.
19 Likes
But thereās a difference between the sound of a crack that breaks the sound barrier and a flat whack. The crack is louder, but the flat whack hurts because it actually connects.
(Unless youāre a professional whip cracker who can accurately crack a whip so its popper extends to hit your target as it cracks at the tip. I doubt CDJ has that ability.)
9 Likes
The more I watch the more I think she was cracking the lash of the whip. Some hits for sure but a lot more cracks.
I was the queen of the whip Crack during longeing when I was a kid. My horse was definitely desensitized to it (never touched them with it).
The aggression is what is so damning in the video.
11 Likes
I think this is relevant. Horse abuse is not exclusive to those who show or even those that ride. How many of us have left barns for deplorable conditions? How many people have seen horses whose hooves havenāt seen a trim in years? How many times has someone called law enforcement on a situation that wasnāt that big a deal to them? How many clearly neglected horses end up at auction? Far too many. I guess to me, the governing bodies can make some progress in the showing space but there is so much more outside that world that we are all well aware of.
Defining things at the top could certainly provide more definable criteria for what constitutes abuse. I donāt have the answers but something Iāve been thinking about.
7 Likes
Seriously? āyou canāt treat train them?ā what planet are you on? you certainly CAN train with food, and doing so makes them MORE safe to be around, not less (assuming you know what you are doing and train correctly using food as the reinforcer.) itās called Positive Reinforcement, itās understood and practiced by animal trainers at zoos as well as with dogs and horses. My four horses (tbs) are all trained with food and none of them will run me over. In fact, I train them, with food, to be calm and respectful, esp. going through gates, doing vet care, in fact, everything including riding. If it makes a giraffe, rhinoceros, elephant, etc. more safe to work with, why not a horse? Come on.
16 Likes
Iām guessing the horses in the big clinics were carefully selected to adjust to CDJās teaching ability. An Olympic medalist is not necessarily a good teacher, neither is any good rider. I think we will see more videos of this nature regarding CDJ.
Anyone know where this one was filmed?
To his credit, Carl Hester signed the IDRC statement that is below: Unfortunately, so did others who have questionable training practices.
STATEMENT ON BEHALF OF THE BOARD OF THE INTERNATIONAL DRESSAGE RIDERS CLUB.
Date: 24 July 2024.
Condemnation of the actions of Charlotte Dujardin.
The Board Members of the International Dressage Riders Club (IDRC) universally condemn the actions of Charlotte Dujardin as seen in the video footage which was made public this morning by Stephan Wensing from European Equine Lawyers on behalf of his client.
The Board members are resolute that equine welfare must always be placed uppermost and at all times. They promote only ethical training methods and practices and strive to encourage all their members to abide by theāInternational Equestrian Federation (FEI) Code of Conduct for the Welfare of the Horseā together with all FEI regulations which support and protect equine welfare standards both in and out of competition.
The IDRC Board supports the actions taken by the FEI, the British Equestrian Federation and British Dressage to provisionally suspend Ms Dujardin. It notes that Ms Dujardin has stated she has no excuse for her actions and has also expressed her shame and regret. Due to the live and on-going investigations the Board will not make any further official announcements on this matter until the investigations are concluded.
Undersigned by the IDRC Board Members;
Isabell Werth, GER, President.
Kyra Kyrklund, FIN,Vice President.
Michael Klimke, GER, Treasurer.
Klaus Roeser, GER, Secretary General.
Carl Hester, GBR.
Beatriz Ferrer Salat, ESP.
Yvonne Losos, DOM.
Hans Peter Minderhout, NED.
Victoria Max-Theurer, AUT.
Catherine Haddad, USA.
4 Likes
A horse (or any mammal) that goes into fear mode will react in a few different ways, depending on the circumstances and that horseās personality ā they are: FLIGHT, FIGHT, FREEZE OR FAWN. This is animal behavior science 101 ā so a horse that is standing rock still can be experiencing as much fear as one bolting away. Same with humans ā in the same stressful situation, some people will freeze and some will fight, some will run, some will try to appease the attacker. This is science, not opinion! If riders and trainers canāt understand this basic aspect of animal behavior, much less the subtle nuances that indicate stress referred to as ācalming signals,ā then how will they ever make the right call in any given situation? What floors me is how ignorant the horse world is, including pros, when it comes to the science of behavior and how to train in a way that is both effective and ethical. This information is EASY to find, lots of materials out there to learn from, yet the horse community seems to prefer to wallow in ignorance. The science for this goes back to 1915 (at least). Add to that the almost complete lack of understanding of what Operant Conditioning is, or Classical Conditioning, and we have a complete train wreck when it comes to horse training or talking about whatās going on in this video. Please everyone TRY HARDER https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight_response
18 Likes
I attended one of her big US clinics and it appeared to be more of a showcase with the issues and exercises already decided in advance. It was educational for a pleb like me, but I imagine a high level rider wouldnāt have heard anything groundbreaking.
5 Likes
So sad for horse sports.
Paul Valliere killed horses for insurance money and stayed in the horse industry (thrived).
This is shameful.
No wonder people want to toss Equestrian from the Olympics. The best arenāt the best.
13 Likes
And teaching an UL, experienced rider vs a younger, less experienced riderā¦ A student who learns best one way vs another or who has learned to do things this way and is lost when instructed to do it that way
The variables are myriad when youāve got so many participants (trainer, horse, rider).
Who knows how long this kid has been riding this horse even? The riders issues could be for a variety of reasons, as you suggested.
I think our equestrian sports have really flown by the seat of our pants for too long wrt instructors and trainers just being thrown in and expected to swim.
.
7 Likes
Corrupt? You bet.
10 Likes
The one person who could help mitigate this video is Carl Hester- and now he has signed a statement condemning it. A simple press release from him stating that he has never seen this type of training from Charlotte and he was shocked when the video was released. And that is not how they train at home. The fact he hasnāt done that is telling.
31 Likes
Actually I think sometimes in a clinic situation where there is time pressure and everyone is watching sometimes brings out the worst in people. It feels less like thereās the option of, hey, this is not going well, letās just stop and put the horse away, we can deal with this tomorrow or next week even. Thereās a lot of pressure to fix the perceived issue right now, and the fancy professional is expected to have magic for everything. And most horse professionals have very little instruction in the technique of teaching in any of those situations.
Teaching is different from riding, and teaching in a clinic is actually super different from teaching long term students. Teaching for an audience is different from a private lesson.
No question though, that there are also people who are quite the opposite, who know how to act charming and delightful in public and who do very awful things to their horses at home. Sometimes thatās ego and sometimes that gets driven by the fact that paying the mortgage depends on this horse performing brilliantly at the right moment. Either one is bad for the horses.
Iām with you that Iām ready for Equestrian to just separate from the Olympics. Letās do our own TV for our own fans and run the sports in a way that makes sense for the horses rather than for the needs of the IOC. And the less we have situations where huge prize or other money depends on the generosity of a horse, where incentives are created to push horses past what is good and safe for them, the better.
21 Likes
If Carl Hester comes out and says, āyeah, I told her to lay off the whipping about with the lunge whipā he will be excoriated alongside her. Not a happy thing for him.
If he comes out and says, āIāve never seen this from Charlotte before in the entire time Iāve known her, this is an aberrationā that might placate some, unless another video comes out.
His team is probably telling him to keep quiet and focus on the Olympics while they deal with this current firestorm. I think the letter condemning it is a good first step.
29 Likes
