Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[poltroon]

@fivestrideline

Flame suit on, here but… Honestly, I wouldn’t mind seeing equestrian dropped from the Olympics. The IOC is doing Eventing no favors and in some opinions it is actively destroying the discipline. Not to mention the oversight issues we have where only one governing body is allowed for a sport in the Olympics, and the problems with USEF that has created. I HATE that it may be due to abuse that we get dropped, but getting dropped really wouldn’t bother me personally.

To all those saying “we are human, we make mistakes” - sure. I have absolutely lost perspective with a horse and been unfair, but nothing like this. More importantly - those once-in-a-while OOPS mistakes do not happen in front of paying customers with smartphones . If someone does things like what’s shown in the video in a lesson to someone else’s horse - with such detachment - what the heck is going on when no one is watching?

Actually I think sometimes in a clinic situation where there is time pressure and everyone is watching sometimes brings out the worst in people. It feels less like there’s the option of, hey, this is not going well, let’s just stop and put the horse away, we can deal with this tomorrow or next week even. There’s a lot of pressure to fix the perceived issue right now, and the fancy professional is expected to have magic for everything. And most horse professionals have very little instruction in the technique of teaching in any of those situations.

Teaching is different from riding, and teaching in a clinic is actually super different from teaching long term students. Teaching for an audience is different from a private lesson.

No question though, that there are also people who are quite the opposite, who know how to act charming and delightful in public and who do very awful things to their horses at home. Sometimes that’s ego and sometimes that gets driven by the fact that paying the mortgage depends on this horse performing brilliantly at the right moment. Either one is bad for the horses.

I’m with you that I’m ready for Equestrian to just separate from the Olympics. Let’s do our own TV for our own fans and run the sports in a way that makes sense for the horses rather than for the needs of the IOC. And the less we have situations where huge prize or other money depends on the generosity of a horse, where incentives are created to push horses past what is good and safe for them, the better.

[Mersidoats]

If Carl Hester comes out and says, “yeah, I told her to lay off the whipping about with the lunge whip” he will be excoriated alongside her. Not a happy thing for him.

If he comes out and says, “I’ve never seen this from Charlotte before in the entire time I’ve known her, this is an aberration” that might placate some, unless another video comes out.

His team is probably telling him to keep quiet and focus on the Olympics while they deal with this current firestorm. I think the letter condemning it is a good first step.

[quietann]

I hope this doesn’t count as abuse, but I did have a trainer who trailed a lunge whip after Feronia when I was really having problems getting her forward and was kind of shut down. Making me not responsible for forward for a couple of minutes while I sorted everything else out was super helpful. But trainer never hit Feronia, and she only waved the whip once, at the beginning, so Feronia knew it was there.

Feronia and I were not a great dressage match but we learned so much from that trainer.

[FitzE]

@poltroon

There’s a lot of pressure to fix the perceived issue right now, and the fancy professional is expected to have magic for everything.

This might be reduced by reducing the price of clinics. When I was young, a young person not from money mostly catch riding like me could do a one-day clinic (the only kind there were) with an Olympian. I understand that, today, to ride is hundreds of dollars/euros per rider per day AND spectators are also charged. When you require people to spend A LOT of money for a product, they are more demanding/have higher expectations of what they are going to get.

Relieving the pressure on the clinician could start with reducing the price and cooling down expectations in line with that. If a rider/owner is spending something more like the price of a pro lesson plus a bit more for the travel, etc., maybe riders/owners will also adjust their expectations: this is a lesson like any other, just a bit more special and with fresh eyes, and nothing is genuinely fixed in one lesson. This is for fresh eyes, a new perspective, and an experience with an instructor with different experience/expertise/ technique than my usual instructor, not $1000 out of pocket for which I now feel I should get concrete change/things fixed.

I understand a lot of BNT think of clinics as cash cows and some can be eye wateringly expensive. Well, when you charge a lot people will expect a lot and you need to be able to handle that and your clients’ expectations. If that pressure is too much and driving you to unsafe and inhumane practices, cool everything down starting with your fees. Then set a tone that this accessibly-priced experience akin to a lesson, you hope everyone picks up something new and that your perspective increases their understanding, but it’s not Hogwarts for Horses where you paid 1000 galleons and issues will be magiked away by the end of the clinic.

[Nous]

IDRC Statement:
https://www.idrc.me/posts/statement-dujardin

[clipper]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Many other people including myself have noted how the rider is completely clamped down and almost immobile in the saddle.

This could be a trauma response to abuse. The responses are generally “fight”, “flight”, “Freeze”, and “fawn”.

Many posters who have never seen abuse before can say what they would do but in the moment the majority of us would not act in our own best interest because we cannot process what is happening in the moment.

Abuse is being normalized in this thread and that really is a shame. There is no excuse, NONE, for this behaviour.

[Nous]

Quote from Facebook:

Alicia Dickinson will be known to many Australians as Alicia Fielmich.

I can’t easily verify any of the statements in the Facebook thread but am sharing just for interest / information:

Kate Sheffield

ETA: One of the thread comments is that the poster is taking legal advice before releasing a video of Charlotte’s accuser abusing a horse.

NB I am not suggesting this excuses CDJ’s actions in the video, but possibly points to reasons for releasing the video at this time which have nothing to do with horse welfare.

[Angela_Freda]

@FitzE

I understand a lot of BNT think of clinics as cash cows and some can be eye wateringly expensive…
…When you require people to spend A LOT of money for a product, they are more demanding/have higher expectations of what they are going to get.

And when what the rider and or horse needs is to go back to basics… Trainers/clinicians can be hesitant, due to the cost of it and the idea that an Olympic clinician doesn’t drill transitions!!.. to do that instead of the ul tricks the rider is working on.

Several here have suggested that IF what was being fixed here was lack of forward (and it’s really hard to say) then transitions is one place to start, playing with what leg on means and the variations within each gait.
Or go outside and work in an outdoor ring, or better yet go back to a field and play with whatever it is you’re working on, using the forward that the outside ring or wide open field naturally often adds/creates.
.

The best clinicians I’ve audited were all about basics. Always going back three steps to tweak something that then actually fixes or is part of the fix to that UL trick that’s sticky.

[gailbyrd]

@Angela_Freda

The best clinicians I’ve audited were all about basics. Always going back three steps to tweak something that then actually fixes or is part of the fix to that UL trick that’s sticky.

In general, People with high priced horses, big egos and paying high price clinician fees don’t want to hear their rider/horse needs to go back to basics.

BUT, to use the longe whip in the way that was demonstrated in the video… yeah, not a good look.

[Angela_Freda]

@gailbyrd

BUT, to use the longe whip in the way that was demonstrated in the video… yeah, not a good look.

Exactly, and kinda beyond going back to basics.
If forward was the goal, but the rider couldn’t do that without all that whipping from the ground…

One wonders where horse and rider are now.
.

[poltroon]

@FitzE

This might be reduced by reducing the price of clinics. When I was young, a young person not from money mostly catch riding like me could do a one-day clinic (the only kind there were) with an Olympian. I understand that, today, to ride is hundreds of dollars/euros per rider per day AND spectators are also charged. When you require people to spend A LOT of money for a product, they are more demanding/have higher expectations of what they are going to get.

Relieving the pressure on the clinician could start with reducing the price and cooling down expectations in line with that. If a rider/owner is spending something more like the price of a pro lesson plus a bit more for the travel, etc., maybe riders/owners will also adjust their expectations: this is a lesson like any other, just a bit more special and with fresh eyes, and nothing is genuinely fixed in one lesson. This is for fresh eyes, a new perspective, and an experience with an instructor with different experience/expertise/ technique than my usual instructor, not $1000 out of pocket for which I now feel I should get concrete change/things fixed.

I understand a lot of BNT think of clinics as cash cows and some can be eye wateringly expensive. Well, when you charge a lot people will expect a lot and you need to be able to handle that and your clients’ expectations. If that pressure is too much and driving you to unsafe and inhumane practices, cool everything down starting with your fees. Then set a tone that this accessibly-priced experience akin to a lesson, you hope everyone picks up something new and that your perspective increases their understanding, but it’s not Hogwarts for Horses where you paid 1000 galleons and issues will be magiked away by the end of the clinic.

It’s been a while since I did a clinic but I’m not sure the money is as big a deal as the limited opportunity. Even the most expensive clinics are are only about the same costs as the same time at a horse show. Not to say that both aren’t eyewateringly expensive by any muggle standards.

The clinics I attended as a rider weren’t that super lucrative to anyone - it costs a lot for the clinician to travel and the cost of the facility is not always negligible; facilities are expensive. The ones that probably are pretty lucrative are the ones where the spectators are paying, and that’s probably where the money and the pressure gets pretty high.

People do clinics for a lot of reasons. Sometimes just bragging rights. Some people expect quick fixes. Some people genuinely want to learn. Unfortunately those of us in the last group pay for the sins and the scars left by the first two groups.

[blue_heron]

This is often true. The symposium at Devon was run the same way last year. The clinician kept referencing the ride the previous day, which was at a private farm and not for everyone to see, which was confusing. Mostly a demonstration of pretty horses and riders, not so much an educational opportunity. I got a couple of new things to think about but most of it wasn’t super helpful.

[JanM]

The Carl Hester, et al, letter from The Independent, via MSN.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/carl-hester-signs-letter-condemning-charlotte-dujardin-horse-whipping-video/ar-BB1qCIeD?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=504f55d63fa2497d909c3558ce1073aa&ei=31

[2tempe]

I think you are spot on re Carl. He really had no choice but to sign the letter as a board member; otherwise yes, put this aside as much as possible mentally and ride for GB.

[Trekkie]

@FjordBCRF

@millerra

The problem is what constitutes abuse; what constitutes horse welfare? And who decides?

I think this is relevant. Horse abuse is not exclusive to those who show or even those that ride. How many of us have left barns for deplorable conditions? How many people have seen horses whose hooves haven’t seen a trim in years? How many times has someone called law enforcement on a situation that wasn’t that big a deal to them? How many clearly neglected horses end up at auction? Far too many. I guess to me, the governing bodies can make some progress in the showing space but there is so much more outside that world that we are all well aware of.

Defining things at the top could certainly provide more definable criteria for what constitutes abuse. I don’t have the answers but something I’ve been thinking about.

Lots of things to discuss here. Horses bite and kick each other daily to guard resources, ensure placement in the herd and protect themselves from other horses. We use whips, spurs and chains to get through to these large, powerful animals that could injure or kill us. How these things are used is a fine line between training and inappropriate use. We also put our horses in a box, often for days on end, that is far from their natural evolutionary state or need. We tranquilize them so we can ride them or show them. We exercise them to the point of exhaustion to “prep” them for competition. We force them to ride in a moving box to travel from place to place. We keep them from companions for fear of injury. We fail to adequately teach them when they are young how to be solid citizens around humans so they then endure harsh chains and treatment. We ride and show them in extreme weather conditions. Is this all abuse? How do we draw the line? What I saw in the video was inappropriate. Was it not great to watch? Yes. Would more context have changed things? Maybe not. But it is interesting how many folks are screaming how horrible and abusive this is. Perhaps any upper level competition is abusive. Perhaps we should not subject horses to riding or training for competition at all. Some horses can be raised and trained with no drama. Some have big personalities and require some more pointed means to get their attention. What is abuse?
I don’t drug my horses to ride or show. I don’t ride in draw reins. My horses get turnout with friends and appropriate vet and farrier care. They go in plain snaffles. Some have been easy to handle and train, others required a more forceful suggestion to make a point. Was that abuse? This discussion is a good one but we must be careful not to jump on a bandwagon that will lead us down a road that is not helpful or useful.

[Scribbler]

Watching conversation play out here and on various FB threads.

I think it’s human nature if you have trusted, admired, and respected a person, and something dodgy comes to light, your reaction is going to be “it’s an isolated incident” or “person was under stress.” Etc. Or to deny because you don’t want to be tainted by association.

But if you don’t respect them, don’t know who they are, or already have a bad impression of them, you tend to think this one proven example is just the tip of the iceberg.

I’m sure there is some extra motive in the timing of the video release, but that doesn’t change the nature of the video.

As far as the Olympics: I get why every sport in the world likes to have a fantasy goal for children, and I get why various countries can feel like the performance of a swimmer or runner or horse or hockey team feels like validation for the entire social system and ethos of that country. But I wonder if they may run their course as mega spectacles just like the World Expositions eventually stopped happening. Oops, I Googled. They haven’t stopped. They happen every 5 years. But have you heard anything about them or given them any thought? They are kind of irrelevant.

Olympics and Expos are often hosted by cities that want to jump start some urban redevelopment but they often don’t create as much as hoped for.

Anyhow I thought for years that the Olympics drew “the best athletes in the world” but they don’t, they draw the best athletes in each country and that means a few internationally top ranked athletes battling it out against a backdrop of many many lower ranked athletes

Dressage is a very clear cut example because there’s one FEI international ranking list and the first 25 spots are usually all German and Dutch with maybe a British rider. The true “top ranked competition” would be some CDI4* in Northern Europe in an Olympic qualifying year with a dozen German or Dutch riders trying to boost their scores and ratings to make the team. Not the actual Olympics where someone ranked 125 rides against the #1 on the list.

I guess the Olympic mythos is that some unknown from an underperforming country will pull a personal best and run or swim or hurdle faster than everyone else in the world. How often does that happen? I think it’s even less likely with horses.

I no longer enjoy watching most high level dressage because I see the tension and imbalance, and I didn’t particularly find Valegro and CD way better in that respect

I don’t know what it means for equestrian sports to be out of the Olympics. I guess it means Safe Sport no longer applies, so it’s back to business as usual with creepy coaches and teenage riders.

[2tempe]

@Scribbler

I don’t know what it means for equestrian sports to be out of the Olympics. I guess it means Safe Sport no longer applies, so it’s back to business as usual with creepy coaches and teenage riders.

Wow, that is an interesting and somewhat scary thought…I know its not been perfect but given all that’s come out, across many sports, it sure was necessary. I wonder if USEF could continue to require it even if not an Olympic sport anymore…

[Knights_Mom]

@FitzE

Again, I’m going to say: the casualness of CDJ abuse of this horse, her calm and rather. upbeat demeanour, suggest this is business as usual, not frustration or a ‘last straw’ situation.

@Trekkie

And while horse welfare is well-intended and always something we all should be very very mindful of, if riding horses and equestrian sport becomes a thing of the past we all would lose.

This is backwards thinking to me. First, horse welfare should not be something that is ‘well-intended’, it should be THE fundamental of everything gyou do with horses.

Second, we shouldn’t be very, very mindful of it; it should be the foundation of EVERYTHING EVERY DAY.

Third, framing it this way - that horse welfare is a ‘best practices’ option but if horse sports lose their social license due to this kind of thing we all lose - is exactly the inverse of what we should be doing.

Instead: horse welfare must the foundation of everything we do with horses. If we don’t make it the #1 (not something the well-intentioned do, not something very very important) principal of horse sport without exception, THAT’S how we lose horse sport and THAT’S when we all lose.

Horse welfare is not a well-intentioned nice to have, it is an absolute must have, even for those who see nothing wrong with what CDJ did or with other harsh training methods and devices. If those people don’t change, it is they who will ruin the sport, not the people who catch it on film and expose it.

The person doing the abuse is ALWAYS the one in the wrong, ALWAYS the one harming the horse and the sport, and ALWAYS 100% responsible for their behaviour.

PETA wouldn’t have stuff like this to put on their website if these people weren’t doing it.

Bravo!! Well said!! Thank goodness! I was starting to lose hope there!

CD screwed up and got herself exposed. No matter the motive or the timing or whatnot.

She is a veteran of the horse world. She is an ambassador. That means she keeps herself squeaky clean. And now what she did is in front of the world. To all the public. Absent excuse, absent justification. All the world will see is a multi metal winning Olympian being mean. And them they will hear about Werths previous suspensions. And Helgstrands. Kittels. Parra.

And that same public who cried watching Free Willy and Blackfish will say no more!!

What makes this one different is that it caught mass media attention. At Olympic time. An example will have to be made.

[Amordoro]

I think this is very important. One could define - quite reasonably - any use of whip or spurs as contrary to horse welfare. It’s easy and safe to say “horse welfare is a must-have!” But it doesn’t mean much except at the extremes. Upper level trainers might, arguably reasonably, see the techniques they use to get a horse to true international competitiveness, from forceful whip use to 23 hour/day confinement, as not inconsistent with horse welfare. They might truly love their horses and feel that nothing they do is harmful to their horses’ well-being. Members of the general public might see use of a double bridle, or “standard” piaffe/passage training, as inconsistent with horse welfare. Who is right? Should we be riding horses at all, much less training them for and dragging them to even kind and gentle lower-level competitions, if our primary concern is really the welfare of the horse and not our own desires?

I’ve said this already, but I really hate the posts here that make it seem like “horse welfare” is some simple clear objective standard, and there’s an easy way to conclusively determine whether an action falls on either side of the line (besides the arguably unarguable - which I qualify only because someone always argues! - extreme cases).

[FitzE]

@Amordoro

I really hate the posts here that make it seem like “horse welfare” is some simple clear objective standard

If you really hate my post, simply reply to me and engage in honest dialogue. This passive aggressive partial quote nonsense should be beneath anyone who actually cares and wants to talk it out among people who are actually pro horse sport.

Hate is a really strong term. I’m rather taken aback by that level of emotional reaction.

I did not say it was simple or clear. I said it cannot be a ‘nice to have’ or something that’s just best intentions. It needs to be foremost.

As for someone claiming a colourable argument for 23 hour a day confinement, beating to welts, and other things I understand are SOP at UL barns, that’s not going to hold up in the court of public opinion or among good, solid horsewomen and horsemen. Veterinary medical professionals can (and do) also weigh in on how some of the things you mentioned impact the health of the horse.

One thing I really dislike (I reserve hate for things like abuse) is people trying to cancel a conversation by saying the subject cannot be defined or even narrowed down or defined broadly in a way that allows something to move forward. It’s intellectually lazy and often dishonest (when put forth by people who don’t actually want any change).

Do better. Engage. Talk it out among like-minded folks who want to save equestrian sports. Save your ‘hate’ for things that are really hateful, like abuse.