Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Alterration]

@hallie2

I’m fond of being really diabolical.
But there are plenty of sociopaths in the world. Publicly forgive them, shame them, it makes no difference. They don’t feel guilt, don’t care what impact they have on those they harm

Though I’m not sure the number of true (diagnosable) sociopaths is that high - I will say - then why bother public shaming them? It only hurts the shamers and doesn’t help the situation. Seems rather pointless really.

I hadn’t thought about poor Hester Prynne in years, and then there were a bunch of incidences in which the woman bore the brunt of the public shame and not the men for similar scandals. Social media amplifies our worst impulses, and I think that comes into play. The hangman’s platform is really big now.

And lest anyone think I think I’m above reproach, I’ve done it myself with certain posters - I’ve certainly jumped on the shaming bandwagon. And though that individual also deserved every bit of it, it did leave a rather sticky residue all over my emotions and made me think a good bit about the public square and the function of public censure. I am not sure my participation did anyone any good and it certainly did not do anything good for my character.

[clipper]

@Alterration

So again - I think losing her sponsorships etc is totally appropriate but I am not about public shaming. She is human - like we all are.

I do not understand this comment. Please explain.
If a person abuses their partner is there to be no public shaming?
Or if a parent abuses their children is there to be no public shaming?
What does being human have to do with it. There are consequences for actions.
Feel free to change the word shaming to the synonyms to offensive or damaging.

Edit to add last line.

[Alterration]

Well let’s talk about the difference between shame and consequences.

Consequences are the result of doing something bad. Guilt is the feeling that you did something bad. Shame is the belief that you are bad. Shaming is an attempt at making someone else believe they are bad.

I think it is entirely possible to mete out justice without shame.

Interestingly enough, much domestic violence comes from a deep sense of shame from the perpetrator. It’s why they often go back to murder the partner after being locked up. It has triggered an even deeper sense of shame.

It is illogical. You’d think that shaming someone would result in changed behavior but it doesn’t.

What you want is for someone to feel the guilt that occurs when you realize that you’ve done wrong. That comes from consequences and acceptance but shame blocks all of that. It’s why change is so hard.

If you’re really interested I’ll be happy to dig up some resources for you. The connection between shame and recidivism in imprisonment and domestic abuse cases is fascinating and sad.

[risuenaVT]

That is a rumor going around, based on a Dutch article that does clearly name her. But Dickinson has denied being the whistleblower (Her stated denials make it seem possible that she was there for the lesson? I don’t know)

Unless someone comes forward as the whistleblower and is confirmed by the lawyer, I don’t know that we’ll ever know.

[Knights_Mom]

@Alterration

I’m definitely not condoning the act.

But let me ask you something - are you perfect by the standards of 10-20 years from now?

Even owning a horse might be considered an act worthy of public humiliation. You just never know.

So again - I think losing her sponsorships etc is totally appropriate but I am not about public shaming. She is human - like we all are.

I wasn’t perfect but I was no where as bad as that.

[Alterration]

Comparative “badness” is an interesting thought experiment and often a way for us to avoid our own feelings of shame.

“I’m not like Joe, he drinks two 6 packs a day, I only drink one so I can’t be an alcoholic”

Obviously (I hope it’s obvious) I’m not accusing you of being a horse abuser, nor am I justifying what Charlotte has done.

It just doesn’t do us any good to pat ourselves on the back and say “at least I’m not as bad as Charlotte”. It would be time better spent thinking about the ways in which we might be unfair to the horses in our charge and how we might remedy that.

From a horse’s POV the problem was less about the whip contact and more about the unfairness of the action (if you will). If the horse had been sensitive to the whip, the action would have been abusive even if she never made contact because there was no clear correct answer.

That’s a nuance that is not well understood outside our world. Heck, it’s a nuance that many horse people don’t get. Probably worth our focus.

[Jealoushe]

My issue with the whole thing is she made her image on saying she uses kindness and softness to train horses. We now see that was a total farce PR act. People who aren’t aggressive to horses don’t suddenly one day at a clinic act that way. That was definitely a tool in her tool box she brought into play.

Her image she had worked hard for years to develop was built on lies.

I can’t tell you how much it hurts me to say these things.

[Alterration]

I feel you. I’m not sure about that TBH. I’ve wavered back and forth on my read of the video and since it was so ineffective at doing anything at all (positive) I rather think that she might have been attempting to solve a problem with a tool she thought might work, and when it didn’t it created a bit of a pickle, and as a clinician she was under pressure to make it work.

I’ve seen this before. A clinician is presented with a problem to fix, the treatment goes awry, and then the clinician thinks “well just a little more pressure will do the trick” and when it doesn’t work things just go wildly sideways until either the horse protests so much that they must back off or they find a way out of the pickle.

I don’t know if that’s the case or not. We are missing significant context from the video.

It doesn’t excuse it at all, and her quick acceptance of the consequences has made me feel more positively inclined that it was an ego-type of mistake rather than a tried and true training method. I am 100% open to being wrong.

I don’t feel like it was out of anger either just to be clear. One can be very frustrated internally without visible emotion. She laughs a bit awkwardly and that’s a tell for me. She let her ego get in the way of what was good for the horse - that much is clear.

[Jealoushe]

This edited clip you can really hear her connecting with the horse, and she really gets her back into and makes a comment about hitting hard.

Total insyn on Instagram: "Hade hon varit ångerfull om hennes agerande inte...

[Alterration]

I’m going to have to look at that on my computer tomorrow as it’s impossible to see on my phone. The audio is unclear as to what it hits.

Either way, it doesn’t matter - it was abuse whether she did or didn’t connect.

I also do not hear her say anything about hitting hard, but I’d have to listen to it more and I don’t want to irritate my husband who has already listened to me prattle on about the situation.

It is definitely disappointing - I am NOT saying it isn’t.

[barnesthenoble]

@Jealoushe

she made her image on saying she uses kindness and softness to train horses.

Is this a narrative she created by saying these things, or were these things said about her because her horses looked so much more relaxed and less mechanical than what else was winning at the time? I’m not saying she didn’t benefit from this being the narrative, or that she didn’t capitalize on the perception–but I don’t recall if she drove the narrative by making statements claiming how much kinder and softer she is, or if that sort of rose up around her. Reading articles about her clinics and such, I’ve always gotten the impression that she’s very matter-of-fact about being as soft as you can but as loud as you need to in order to be effective.

Not justifying the behavior either way, and I’m totally open to being wrong. I haven’t read her book or much in the way of interviews with her so I have no idea if she’s actually said she’s so much softer and kinder than other trainers at the upper levels. I do agree that she was perceived that way until a few days ago, though.

[KyrieNZ]

TL:DR

Let those without sin cast the first stone. We’re human, we make mistakes. I have seen worse, but that doesn’t make it right. Hers is videoed and shared online. She has owned up to it.

The person videoing and laughing is not doing the situation any favours.
The person who waited four years to report it is not doing the situation any favours.

Charlotte has lost sponsorship from Fairfax Saddles, and Charles Owen helmets. Let us not forget she led the change from top hats to safety helmets. She has done some good in the equine world.

I hope she is getting the support she needs. She is being bullied, and that is not right. That in itself is abuse.

[xQHDQ]

What I see is a trainer failing to get through to her student, so she resorts to a short-cut.

The student looks tight in their hip angle and unforgiving in her hands, which is probably impeding her horse. Instead of addressing the root cause, CD goes after what she knows - how the horse moves. This was a one-off lesson, so she didn’t really know the pair. She probably wanted to have the student feel what she was talking about with the horse (articulating his joints more?) to be able to send her home with something. The horse looks to get angry (rightfully so) more than scared as he tries to figure it out but it is hard to see in the grainy video.

Was what CD did the right way to achieve what she was looking for? NO!

But, before I condemn CD to the fate she seems to be experiencing, I want to see: 1) the entire lesson; and 2) other instances where she is inappropriate to horses.

This was/is a teaching moment for CD. Hopefully she recognized at the time the mistake she made and if not, she does now. All of us have done something we look back on and realize was unfair to our horse. Maybe right after and maybe days/weeks/years later. Mistakes are how we learn. The sin is repeating our mistake - not in making it in the first place.

[Annie_Burton]

@KyrieNZ

Charlotte has lost sponsorship

That’s appropriate. Having sponsors endorse an athlete is a huge and earned privilege. If the athlete acts against the ethical guidelines of the sport, the sponsors can make a big statement by withdrawing. Maybe one of the only ways of keeping athletes in check and on track. Money speaks.

Charlotte un-earned the privilege. She is in the critical eye and debates, which is excellent for us all to hone our communal understanding of what’s simply unacceptable.

[sascha]

@Alterration

her quick acceptance of the consequences has made me feel more positively inclined that it was an ego-type of mistake rather than a tried and true training method. I am 100% open to being wrong

Here, let me fix this for you:

her quick acceptance of the consequences is a sign of the excellent quality of her PR team and how much trust she has in them.

[GraceLikeRain]

@KyrieNZ

I hope she is getting the support she needs. She is being bullied, and that is not right

I am not on social media but I haven’t seen a single bullying post in over 700 on this thread. People have processed, shared sadness and disappointment, considered how do we define horsemanship, and more. The continuation of this thread and the deeper conversation of accountability for pros should not be conflated with some type of witch hunt.

[Jealoushe]

She pushes this narrative, it was a huge part of her symposiums and interviews over the years.

https://bit.ly/BD-CEOopenletter

[Jealoushe]

@xQHDQ

But, before I condemn CD to the fate she seems to be experiencing, I want to see: 1) the entire lesson; and 2) other instances where she is inappropriate to horses.

what could possibly happen in the lesson before this that makes it ok?

I don’t get people defending her actions when she herself expressed it was wrong.

[xQHDQ]

It’s because the punishment is disproportionate to the crime. Not that she doesn’t deserve consequences - she does.

[FjordBCRF]

@KyrieNZ

Charlotte has lost sponsorship from Fairfax Saddles, and Charles Owen helmets.

LeMieux put a statement out last night too, they dropped her as well.