Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Alterration]

It was not that I thought it acceptable. I literally never excused it.

Again, I’m not sure I’m explaining myself well at all, because clearly the ire is now pointed at me, who was making commentary about public pitchforks and not about the correctness of the action.

There’s a saying, which whether you’re a Christian or not is a pretty good one attributed to Jesus which was - Judge not, lest you be judged. While I’m not particularly religious, I have always taken this aboard as a really good warning about the danger of excoriating others in the public eye.

This is entirely different than accountability. I believe she should face all of the consequences of her actions and have stated that repeatedly.

Huge difference.

But even the reaction to my relatively innocuous post about our society has garnered an intense emotional response - we ought to watch for that.

PS - I also care about the horse - the whole thing makes me sad and horrified.

[RedFox5]

I comprehend you don’t think she should be publicly shamed for it but I disagree and think it’s warranted. I don’t believe in +R only training either and wanted desperately for it to be something other than what that video was but that isn’t the case and losing sponsors isn’t enough in my opinion especially when plenty think it’s just to save face and likely is that. She should understand her actions have hurt the entire community and people are outraged about it.

[Aussie_2020]

When wolves howl they only hear their own voice. I think the same for some posters. I get what you’re saying and fully agree.

[Alterration]

They have hurt the community, I’ll agree with you there.

I’ll just never cheer at a public hanging. Not my style. Seems a wee bit like we haven’t left the medieval ages.

[libgrrl]

“Times have changed.”

Yes, they have. And this does not address the video being discussed in question.

A few years ago (longer ago than I wish to admit) I went to a local clinic with a mare of mine. She got a little “light in front” – and I got after her. Probably pretty hard. I am not proud of that at all. Performance anxiety perhaps, and that was the only tool in my toolbox for that behavior.

Perhaps there is video out there somewhere (unlikely since phone cameras were still pretty rare) but if there is – I feel bad about that. She is gone now, and I’m not famous, but that exists/existed. I own it.

I’m sure there are photos of horses I’ve ridden with “poor saddle fit” that I tried to address with stacked pads. That’s what we knew. I’ve also generally applied “the stick” a couple of times behind the leg to a stop at a jump. It was (at the time) a “disobedience” – and we wanted to ensure that it wouldn’t happen again.

Goalposts keep moving. I’m not comfortable doing this level of “pile on” to something that happened in the past. Yes, we know better – so do better! We didn’t always “know better” back then.

[FitzE]

@Alterration

This is entirely different than accountability. I believe she should face all of the consequences of her actions and have stated that repeatedly.

But one cannot be held accountable for and receive the consequences of actions that go unjudged. If no one can ever judge something wrong simply because they themselves (like everyone) had done some things wrong, then it’s a free for all.

[Alterration]

No. That’s not true.

There is a difference between having ramifications and public shaming. Many people face legal consequences for their actions and do not face blame and shame, not quite like a public figure.

We get immense schaudenfreude when someone is “taken down a peg” and it is a scarily addictive feeling. We may not acknowledge that is our motivation, nor even be aware of it, but it’s powerful and something we have been struggling with as a society for quite some time.

My commentary was literally only about that. We have been veering into the glee and “righteous anger” space and that is dangerous.

Again - I think what she did was horrifying. But I’m simultaneously saying, let her face the consequences, check our own responses and our own houses and hope that she can learn from it and come back stronger.

[FitzE]

@Alterration

Many people face legal consequences for their actions

Because those actions were judged wrong, usually in the first instance by another person who saw or was the victim of those actions and judged them wrong and reported them.

You’re saying don’t public shame, don’t indulge in schadenfreude. That’s different from don’t judge. We all have to judge actions and character all the time. It would ridiculous not to.

I didn’t see any veering into glee. I thought it was taking a productive turn towards discussing what we, horse-sport lovers, can do to fix things so this stops happening.

[Alterration]

You and I have definitely read things differently then.

The post I was responding to initially, and the phrase I was responding to was specifically about using public condemnation to control the behavior of other people.

That being said - I didn’t make up “Judge not, lest you be judged” and I don’t think Jesus was against the legal system. He (or whomever was the writer) was talking about our hearts. Not the legal system.

I don’t believe we need to make examples of people to convince others that something is wrong. That’s a very depressing view of life. That people are only prevented from doing wrong because of a fear of public shaming. In fact, I would say that it is ineffective and only proves to drive bad things further underground.

I often think that about the law as well. I don’t murder people, or speed or steal but it isn’t because of a fear of repercussion. It’s because I know the net effects of those things on others and I choose not to bring that kind of negativity into the world.

Anyway - this is getting wildly off topic. I agree that we should talk about making things better. I’d rather focus on that.

[FitzE]

Definitely agree to disagree on one point: it takes a village to broadcast to a bad actor that their actions are bad and will not be tolerated. If Person A does a bad thing (say rip off another member of the community by lying to them and taking their money) why should anyone in the community feel bad about treating them like they did a bad thing?

If one can do bad things and still go about daily life with everyone smiling and making pleasantries to make sure Person A isn’t made uncomfortable in any way by their own choice to be a scumbag then, like it or not, they are going to feel way more free to be a scumbag.

You and I don’t need the law to not hurt other people. But many many people do. And I actually hate (genuinely hate) when a community knows for sure (proof positive) that Person A has been a scumbag to an innocent party but everyone just talks behind Person A’s back while smiling in his face. I refuse to do that.

There is a Person A in my little community. I don’t treat him like I treat others when I see him. It’s not my job to make him feel comfortable in social situations given what he’s done until he does something to make good on his scumbaggery.

Until then, I’m calling a scumbag and scumbag and I don’t smile and chitchat with scumbags.

Public reaction matters.

I don’t think this is off topic at all. CDJ is feeling this right now and it’s a legit topic of conversation here. I think she’s reacted so much better than, for instance, Parra. I think she deserves less public rebuke than Parra does. He deserves continued shunning until he comes clean and makes things right at least with the people he hurt and stops his abuse.

[Scribbler]

People admire CDJ and that leads to more empathy as I said above. More tendency to think it’s an isolated incident she should learn from and move past and we shouldn’t shame her.

But if you would condemn equivalent training practices from other less well liked folks, that’s a bit hypocritical.

Also this isn’t something from her teen years. It’s two years ago post Olympics, and it’s rolled out casually in a lesson with a junior. It’s not even an over reaction to a dangerous resistance etc etc. The very banality of the situation is important, the fact CDJ didn’t think there was anything wrong doing that publicly. And it was stupid and seems to have accomplished nothing.

[Alterration]

@FitzE

If Person A does a bad thing (say rip off another member of the community by lying to them and taking their money) why should anyone in the community feel bad about treating them like they did a bad thing?

Not doing business with them so that you don’t get ripped off (and warning others who might choose to do business with them) is different than public shame.

@FitzE

I think she deserves less public rebuke than Parra does. He deserves continued shunning until he comes clean and makes things right at least with the people he hurt and stops his abuse

On this point I agree.

I also think that the CDJ video is different than the CP video in a number of ways. Again - not excusing it - but my read on CDJ was that for whatever reason she was trying to solve a problem that was presented to her. She definitely did it ineffectively and abusively, but that’s a little different than taking horses into your program and putting them into a running W. And she did rather quickly assume responsibility which is a good thing. Yes, she likely has a PR firm helping her, but I’m not so cynical that I don’t believe her intention. Carl and Charlotte both have been good advocates for horses and while I always thought she was a bit handsy, I appreciated those things.

Again, I don’t think her consequences are incorrect or the fact that it was “less bad” than CP means she should be off the hook. I hope by now I’ve made that clear. I’m just hoping for good - that’s all.

[FitzE]

@Alterration

Not doing business with them so that you don’t get ripped off (and warning others who might choose to do business with them) is different than public shame.

Why shouldn’t a genuine scumbag who has ripped off several in the community not feel shame, public and private? They should. They should feel very ashamed (as CDJ says she is). And that shame should absolutely be public until they handle their , make things right, and prove through their actions that they are not being a scumbag anymore.

Until then, yeah, they should feel shame including public shame. Not my job to make them comfy scumbags. When I see them I’m all, what’s up, scumbag? Did you pay back that lady you robbed while she was in cancer treatment?

[Alterration]

Eh, shame breeds violence - it doesn’t change behavior. It’s been well studied. Shame is ineffective as a tool for change.

Sure does feel good to shame someone - it just doesn’t work. Usually it entrenches them. Causes recidivism too.

I’m not saying that they don’t deserve to feel guilt - but guilt and shame are different.

[Alterration]

And by the way, if you ever want to be really diabolical?

Forgive someone openly for their misdeeds.

They’ll feel wayyyyy more guilt that way. And they have a shot at focusing on their instead of defending themselves against you.

It helps me in the moments I can’t muster up empathy, to realize that I’m being way more effective making people feel contrite with forgiveness than I ever could be with public humiliation.

[FitzE]

Okay, fair point. I want him to feel guilty and uncomfortable until he makes things right. As soon as he does that, I’ll say hello and make a comment about the weather (a national requirement in all public conversations ) and move on.

I hope CDJ does come through this as a better trainer and horseperson. I wouldn’t treat her like Person A b/c she’s actively addressing what she did, requested sanctions, and seems like she’s genuinely gets that what she did was wrong.

[FitzE]

@Alterration

Forgive someone openly for their misdeeds.

I did that once. He didn’t even respond. He was the type who takes it as a get out of jail free card. That’s why I forgave but also pursued legal remedies. I think that works on the same type of people who don’t need laws to not hurt others. On genuine scumbags I think it just makes them laugh and see you as an even bigger mark, sadly.

[Alterration]

@FitzE

Okay, fair point. I want him to feel guilty and uncomfortable until he makes things right. As soon as he does that, I’ll say hello and make a comment about the weather (a national requirement in all public conversations ) and move on

This made me belly laugh, thank you!

Yes - agreed. I’m not sure if it’s any consolation but he likely does, privately. Most non-sociopathic people (which is the majority of us) do know when we’ve done wrong, even when we don’t want to face it. Most bury their wrongdoings in self-harm or stubbornness because that’s way easier than facing it.

Hiding from those things often results in self-destruction. I’ve met so many alcoholics that have shame as a common denominator. Sad, really. But again - diversion!

I share your hope.

[Alterration]

@FitzE

That’s why I forgave but also pursued legal remedies. I think that works on the same type of people who don’t need laws to not hurt others. On genuine scumbags I think it just makes them laugh and see you as an even bigger mark, sadly.

Oh I’ll never advise anyone not to pursue legal remedy if it is applicable. I just mean - in your heart and communication. You can forgive someone without losing your boundaries!!

[hallie2]

I’m fond of being really diabolical.
But there are plenty of sociopaths in the world. Publicly forgive them, shame them, it makes no difference. They don’t feel guilt, don’t care what impact they have on those they harm. And I loved your line about Hester Prynne. Haven’t thought about her since middle school.