Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Mersidoats]

It is unfair, and I think optics are at play here. Blue tongues made the rounds in horse media, and I think some Swedish magazines picked up the photos, but it’s not the morning news on BBC. And yes, they did sanction her prior to the news playing the clip, but probably acted so quickly because 1) she’s far more of a celebrity than Werth or Kittel 2) knew that the tape was being released 3) anticipated the absolute firestorm of public reaction.

Honestly, no one outside of the horse world cares about blue tongues. But they do care about horses getting whipped.

Helgstrand has eff-you money. He’s untouchable. Parra has a billionaire client in his pocket. Money sucks. They both got roundly flogged on social media, but both of them also had terrible reputations beforehand.

Again, it’s not fair.

The FEI has shown us time and again they don’t act unless they are forced to. They are reactionary, not proactive.

[hallie2]

Kicked, Bitten, and Scratched: Life and Lessons at the World’s Premier School for Exotic Animal Trainers by Amy Sutherland

This was written by a journalist who spent a year learning training techniques used for exotic animals. Many of the animals were trained for movie and tv work. What I took away, more than anything, was that the trainers only used physical punishment when they were in danger of being attacked or injured. The author made the point that to get the best out of any animal, it helps if the animal likes the trainer. The trainers studied the personalities of their animals and thought hard about which conditions were best for training that particular animal. A shy animal requires different training conditions than an exuberant animal of the same species. In the case of the horse whipped by CDJ, they would try to understand why the horse doesn’t want to go forward and then try to provide conditions in which the horse is more willing. Easier said than done, I know, but the book is worth reading.

[skydy]

Parra is suspended.

Helgstrand is suspended by his NF but not by the FEI.

He can’t compete however. The NFs have reciprocity with the FEI. To compete in FEI competitions you have to be a member in good standing of your NF.

[Scribbler]

@FitzE

It does seem unfair that they can compete while being investigated and Parra and Helgstrand seem to have no repercussions, but CDJ is strung up instantly.

Not that I think CDJ doesn’t deserve repercussions; I think they all do and it seems very lopsided if several who also have pictures and video of their abuse out there are free to compete.

But CDJ voluntarily withdrew from the Olympics. So there is no “investigation period.”

[Jealoushe]

I read she asked to be suspended.

[Alterration]

I’m definitely not condoning the act.

But let me ask you something - are you perfect by the standards of 10-20 years from now?

Even owning a horse might be considered an act worthy of public humiliation. You just never know.

So again - I think losing her sponsorships etc is totally appropriate but I am not about public shaming. She is human - like we all are.

[bamboopole]

Advanced dressage riders are no better than Walking horse or Racking horse trainers.
Soon everyone in a dressage barn will have to be patted down for recording devices.

[Scribbler]

So it looks like Alicia Dickinson reported the video. She is an ex real estate agent and ammie dressage rider who has created an online subscription service called Dressage Institute that promises to Explain Dressage to other confused ammies. She doesn’t give any tips away free but says she had so many questions when she started about right and wrong.

Ok. But if two years ago she was witnessing this “training” without understanding it was wrong, I don’t really trust her depth of knowledge to be asking for paid subscriptions to her educational platform!

[bamboopole]

I’m not perfect. I’ve also never hit a horse with a longe whip, or frightened one like CDJ.

[Alterration]

No - and you’ll note that I wasn’t condoning her action.

But something you do today may be considered heinous later.

My statement is about the public shaming, not about what she is doing being excusable. There is a significant difference.

[Mersidoats]

My hope, and it is a desperate hope, is the CDJ can emerge from this as a consummate hero for horses. Admit her wrong doing, change how she trains and teaches, that she can become an advocate for transparency in training. Maybe, somehow, this moment will finally light a fire under the collective asses of our elite trainers and we can keep dressage and horse sport sustainable and palatable. I do think it is important to note that she so quickly took responsibility. How often do we see the likes of Helgstrand and Parra squirm and bluster?

I dislike how often our society ostracizes the wrongdoers because I do think people can change. I do think we can forgive honestly repentant people. I don’t want to see her disappear into oblivion. Some of you may disagree with this.

[Mountainbellls]

Just an observation: The long clip of about 2:08 mins long from the Sun is actually a clip of about 1 min long ( starting at minute marker 0:05 to 1:04, which is then repeated, starting again at minute marker 1:05 till virtually the end, at mm 2:03, giving the impression that the session videoed was 2 minutes long, when in fact the video recorded and shown was only 1 minute long. Unfortunately, this doesn’t answer the question of how long this went on for. Also, it really does look like contact is made frequently, judging from the length of space from her hand holding the whip to the horse’s body (shorter than the length of the whip) and the completion of a “swing thru”.

[RedFox5]

That wasn’t losing her temper though. That wasn’t a mistake she immediately regretted. That was also endangering horse and rider. How far are we willing to excuse because we’re afraid to upset things close to the Olympics?

[Alterration]

I didn’t excuse her behavior.

I also said she should lose her sponsorships, wth?

I don’t think she did it out of anger.

Public shaming is different than consequences. I…thought I made that clear but I guess people don’t read for comprehension.

[SMF11]

@Alterration

But something you do today may be considered heinous later.

I will worry about that in 20 or 30 years, should that situation ever come to pass.

But for now, I prefer to keep my focus on the person who committed clear abuse. (Something btw that has been clearly recognized as abuse for more than a century).

[Alterration]

Again, my point was not that she should face zero consequences.

I just despise our society’s black and white, public shaming, point of view.

Hester Prynne and the Scarlet Letter was not meant to be an instruction manual.

That’s literally all I said.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Alterration

But let me ask you something - are you perfect by the standards of 10-20 years from now?

I understand the point you are making. However, I’d push back and say that while none of us can know the standards of the future, we know the standards of today.

The video demonstrates behavior that is incongruent with what the vast majority of horse enthusiasts would condone. The normalization of it behind the closed doors of top trainers doesn’t negate that.

20 years from now I may even personally feel it is unethical to ride horses. We certainly keep learning a lot about their brains and bodies. That being said, I’d have absolute peace knowing that within my financial, personal development, and emotional regulation abilities of today I am doing the absolute best I can.

I feel sad for the things I didn’t know with care and training for my first mare 20 years ago but I truly did my best. This is not Charlottes best and we all know it.

[Aussie_2020]

I attended a zoo presentation (via zoom) on transporting animals. They talked briefly about a giraffe and a rhino, but went into detail on four painted dogs that were sent to a zoo in Colombia. It was fascinating to hear how they prepped for the move. Almost two years of training, paperwork, proper kennels, etc. Really interesting. I knew most zoos worked with their animals to prepare them for vet checks, but the staff do so much to make sure the animals stay calm and don’t get stressed. If only riders cared as much for their horses.

[Alterration]

It was not that I thought it acceptable. I literally never excused it.

Again, I’m not sure I’m explaining myself well at all, because clearly the ire is now pointed at me, who was making commentary about public pitchforks and not about the correctness of the action.

There’s a saying, which whether you’re a Christian or not is a pretty good one attributed to Jesus which was - Judge not, lest you be judged. While I’m not particularly religious, I have always taken this aboard as a really good warning about the danger of excoriating others in the public eye.

This is entirely different than accountability. I believe she should face all of the consequences of her actions and have stated that repeatedly.

Huge difference.

But even the reaction to my relatively innocuous post about our society has garnered an intense emotional response - we ought to watch for that.

PS - I also care about the horse - the whole thing makes me sad and horrified.

[RedFox5]

I comprehend you don’t think she should be publicly shamed for it but I disagree and think it’s warranted. I don’t believe in +R only training either and wanted desperately for it to be something other than what that video was but that isn’t the case and losing sponsors isn’t enough in my opinion especially when plenty think it’s just to save face and likely is that. She should understand her actions have hurt the entire community and people are outraged about it.