Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Alterration]

@Sticky_Situation

That came across my social media feed too… there was a post from a week or two ago, pre-video, with her daughter and people were going through putting “angry face” emojis on every single somewhat good-natured comment that had been made toward her.

I hate the mob-with-pitchforks aspect of social media. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if she’s receiving death threats etc.

That doesn’t mean I think she shouldn’t have very serious consequences, or that people shouldn’t be allowed to state their opinions like they’re doing here or choose to not do business with her. Suspension, loss of clients, loss of sponsors … all fair game and justified.

But if I’m not a fan of the modern equivalent of public stoning, in which she (and likely her family) is constantly harassed by strangers who merely want to tell the world that they’re better than her.

This is exactly what I was trying to say.

There was another recent example that came across my feed where a stable had photos of very undernourished-appearing horses and children on their backs. Rightly so, people were upset about the condition of the horses, and there were many posts about it.

But then I went to the stable’s page, to see why they might have posted the photos (they were directly from the stable in question) and I scrolled down through the feed. Rabidly angry people posted on every single post from the stable - even ones not involving the horses in question - going back years, with insults and abuse.

That is, in my mind, the angry mob. And it’s ugly. People get swept up in it.

I worked for a University that was a member of the big 10 with a football team with intense rivalries. After a football game with one of the teams that we had an intense rivalry with I happened to be driving home (I wasn’t at the game, I was at a friend’s house - just had the unfortunate timing to leave right when that was happening). The students who had been partying first poured into the streets post game to celebrate, which was a normal occurrence. VERY quickly, it turned into more of a riot. The goal post was taken down, a street lamp was taken out, and cop cars were jumped on. These were intelligent college students, and it was shocking. The consequences were pretty dire, and most of the students expressed disbelief at their own behavior. There’s a very real phenomenon of getting swept up in mob emotion.

Online mobs are no different. The pressure to emotionally join in the mob and do and say things that you’d never expect yourself to do or say is huge. They turn into real mobs sometimes too, death threats aren’t even the worst of it. It can escalate to violence.

It’s one of the things that makes me incredibly cautious when news comes out condemning someone. I don’t always take the high road, I’ve been caught up in it too - I am just considerably more careful than I was before I had that knowledge.

[Mondo]

I don’t think someone’s career and life should be ruined over what I saw in the video.

[MNEventer]

That’s a lot of words to equal “whataboutism”. By that line of thinking, ill-fitting saddles and poor diets are less harmful than soring and starvation, so why is the author so concerned about the former? The logic doesn’t hold.

People are grieving, in a way. The CDJ they thought they knew is either gone or was a complete fabrication, and they’re processing the new-to-them information. Telling people not to feel how they feel is generally not a successful strategy.

[Alterration]

@2tempe

What hasn’t been discussed much here is what is final penalty likely to be, or what do people want to see. Longer ban? Lifetime ban? Should she leave Hester’s yard (voluntarily or not) ? Her career at least in the nearer term is effectively done. Can she rebuild her image a year or two down the road?

I’d like to think that she can come back from this. But then again, I’m also a person who believes that many (not all) criminals who have committed violent crimes can be rehabilitated.

I think I’d like to see her talk about why it happened, not as an excuse, but to become an advocate for resisting whatever it was, whether it be competition pressures, frustration, whatever it was that motivated whatever it was that caused it.

That would be very hard, I’m sure, and I know the pitchfork-wielding mob would find it hard to stomach, but I think it would be better for the sport if she could. The common way of dealing with the pitchfork-wielding mob is to just let it die and that’s sad, because it misses the opportunity for a “teachable moment”.

[chestnutmarebeware]

@Jealoushe

People who aren’t aggressive to horses don’t suddenly one day at a clinic act that way. That was definitely a tool in her tool box she brought into play.

Exactly. And this is why I interpret all these mea culpa statements like CDJ’s to mean not “I’m sorry, I’ve seen the error of my ways and will strive to do better, blah, blah, blah” but rather “I’m sorry I got caught and I’ll be more careful next time.”

Because real change is HARD and people have achieved enormous fame and financial success from their abusive and/or shady tactics.

When you’re caught you have to 'fess up to have the best chance at surviving the PR backlash, but I rarely believe a word of any pledges to change.

[4_white_socks]

@Jealoushe me too please!

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Only saw it because people commented on my comment

[Warmblood1]

@2tempe

What hasn’t been discussed much here is what is final penalty likely to be, or what do people want to see. Longer ban? Lifetime ban? Should she leave Hester’s yard (voluntarily or not) ? Her career at least in the nearer term is effectively done. Can she rebuild her image a year or two down the road?

I don’t want to see her career and life destroyed by this. That would be devastating to me. I think she deserves a temporary ban, not a permanent one, and I think she deserves to have to earn her sponsors and the trust of the public back.

I would like to see her step up as a horse person and role model and say that this was not ok. This is why I did this, this was my thought process, this is why it was wrong. This is what I should have done. These are better ways to fix X problem. I’m willing to create an open door to my training. In today’s society, people are scrutinized and fall from grace. She could be an example of how to pick herself back up. I hope she does.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

@2tempe

The suspension for now is 6 months. That could change. Sponsors, rightly, are gone, and likely some clients.

So here’s a question that this raised: If this was YOUR trainer in the video - not CDJ, but the very person you respect / admired the most - whom you have never, ever, ever seen this behaviour or an iota of this beforehand from… would you still ride with them?

(General Q to the room, not directed at 2tempe).

[libgrrl]

@Warmblood1

I would like to see her step up as a horse person and role model and say that this was not ok. This is why I did this, this was my thought process, this is why it was wrong. This is what I should have done. These are better ways to fix X problem.

I would like to hear that too – but I just don’t see how she can. At this point, it will just poke the bear still further rather than allowing the furor to die down. See, this is why this type of reaction only creates entrenched sides, not meaningful dialogue that leads to change.

[FjordBCRF]

@Old_Mac_Donald

So here’s a question that this raised: If this was YOUR trainer in the video - not CDJ, but the very person you respect / admired the most - whom you have never, ever, ever seen this behaviour or an iota of this beforehand from… would you still ride with them?

Nope. I took lessons with my trainer and watched her work other client horses for well over a year before I handed her the reins for training rides. We switched to training rides when she started having to teach me new things and the horse at the same time. I figured for his sake, he could learn from her first and then get me sorted.

Im a lifetime rider with a goal to have fun and have a great little all around guy with a solid walk/trot/canter, he gets there when he gets there and he’s pretty solid. I wouldn’t spend a dime on someone that that I was worried about the safety/security of my horse.

If my trainer did what Charlotte did with me on or off the horse I’d have threatened to beat her with the whip!

Editing to add - when I was younger, there was a girl that had a horrid tendency to RIP on her horses face and the horse just put up with it. At one point, the trainer asked if we could put her on my horse who was much more sensitive. Today I would have said no. As a teen I said yes but the second she gets frustrated and shows any signs of yanking she’s done. It of course started to escalaed I grabbed the reins out of her hands and told her to get off immediately and she was never riding my horse again. She had a lot of anger issues and there was a lot going on at home but we all felt awful for her horse.

[smoofox]

@Mondo

I don’t think someone’s career and life should be ruined over what I saw in the video.

Agreed. It can be a teaching and understanding episode instead of a very enthusiastic lynching.

@Alterration

I think I’d like to see her talk about why it happened, not as an excuse, but to become an advocate for resisting whatever it was, whether it be competition pressures, frustration, whatever it was that motivated whatever it was that caused it.

That would be very hard, I’m sure, and I know the pitchfork-wielding mob would find it hard to stomach, but I think it would be better for the sport if she could. The common way of dealing with the pitchfork-wielding mob is to just let it die and that’s sad, because it misses the opportunity for a “teachable moment”.

Many of the pitchfork-wielding mob do not care about a teachable moment - nor do they realize that what is better for any equestrian discipline - is careful and measured actions and correction.

@Warmblood1

I don’t want to see her career and life destroyed by this. That would be devastating to me. I think she deserves a temporary ban, not a permanent one, and I think she deserves to have to earn her sponsors and the trust of the public back.

I would like to see her step up as a horse person and role model and say that this was not ok. This is why I did this, this was my thought process, this is why it was wrong. This is what I should have done. These are better ways to fix X problem. I’m willing to create an open door to my training. In today’s society, people are scrutinized and fall from grace. She could be an example of how to pick herself back up. I hope she does.

I hope so, too - and I also hope that pitch-wielding mob can half-halt coming out of the corner at F, take a deep breath and then ease into a free walk on a long rein on the diagonal that is far more conducive to examination and solutions.

@libgrrl

@Warmblood1

I would like to see her step up as a horse person and role model and say that this was not ok. This is why I did this, this was my thought process, this is why it was wrong. This is what I should have done. These are better ways to fix X problem.

I would like to hear that too – but I just don’t see how she can. At this point, it will just poke the bear still further rather than allowing the furor to die down. See, this is why this type of reaction only creates entrenched sides, not meaningful dialogue that leads to change.

Exactly - well said.

[steelerino]

So, surprisingly, this made my morning radio show I listen to. The host who has zero horse experience plays the CDJ video. The first thing out of his mouth to his co-hosts is “Have any of you ever watched this dressage? How do you think you get these horses to do these things? Ever see a horse out in the field just dancing in place? No, they force them.” A regular Joe Schmo is not surprised by the whipping in the video but every horse person in the world is? Come on.

[Alterration]

@Old_Mac_Donald

So here’s a question that this raised: If this was YOUR trainer in the video - not CDJ, but the very person you respect / admired the most - whom you have never, ever, ever seen this behaviour or an iota of this beforehand from… would you still ride with them?

It’s funny, because I had something like this occur to the same horse - TWICE.

Talk about regret as an owner.

I put him with one trainer, who I had watched for a very long time before I got him and never saw a hint of aggression from, and found out later she had done more than one thing that was abusive to him - never in my presence. I took him from her training the minute I found out.

Then I moved him across the country, put him with a trainer who had a great reputation, and in the very first in-hand lesson with him, she whipped him aggressively when he did not yield to her taps and pushes with the whip. I was surprised and shocked, and yanked him from her training immediately. I would not put another horse with her, no.

I had never either person do anything like that to any other horse. It was out of character. But my horse was unique in the barn both times in personality and type. Both trainers I had watched for significant lengths of time and I took him out of both programs the minute I was aware of an issue. I finally ended up training the horse, even though I wasn’t really up to it physically at the time. He’s wonderful, and moves heaven and earth for me - but he was not a compliant horse by nature.

The saying “Where knowledge ends, violence begins” is a saying for a reason.

So no - would I continue taking lessons from CDJ at the moment? No. At the same time, should she step up and become an advocate, I would consider it down the road. It could be a learning moment for her, and a reformed person is someone who I am willing to give a chance to. I’d just have to see it.

[Alterration]

@steelerino

So, surprisingly, this made my morning radio show I listen to. The host who has zero horse experience plays the CDJ video. The first thing out of his mouth to his co-hosts is “Have any of you ever watched this dressage? How do you think you get these horses to do these things? Ever see a horse out in the field just dancing in place? No, they force them.” A regular Joe Schmo is not surprised by the whipping in the video but every horse person in the world is? Come on.

I’m not sure what you mean by this, but I’ve totally seen horses piaffe in the field. One of mine performs a lovely piaffe as he is waiting to come in, weight on the haunches and everything. It’s super annoying, but he does it (and he’d never stand up to being a GP horse…he’s just weird). I also see them performing passage, pirouettes, and extended canter…

The general public is woefully ignorant of horses and their nature.

[Scribbler]

@steelerino

So, surprisingly, this made my morning radio show I listen to. The host who has zero horse experience plays the CDJ video. The first thing out of his mouth to his co-hosts is “Have any of you ever watched this dressage? How do you think you get these horses to do these things? Ever see a horse out in the field just dancing in place? No, they force them.” A regular Joe Schmo is not surprised by the whipping in the video but every horse person in the world is? Come on.

He’s likely seen the Latino American dancing horse stuff, which uses harsh methods to get a parade prance that superficially resembles piaffe or passage. Using Iberian horses who have that factory installed anyhow.

My Paint mare used to reliably passage once a year — when I put her on a field for her fall vacation and she saw the herd coming up to greet her. We don’t have use of that field anymore so haven’t seen her do that recently!

[2tempe]

In my current situation - My trainer currently comes to where I board, once/twice a week. Yes I would continue to ride with him. Edited to add: my horse LOVES my trainer - knows the sound of the truck; nickers to him when he gets out of the truck. If I had a horse at his farm in training it would be a somewhat more difficult decision, and it would not be made without a heart to heart conversation

[2bayboys]

@2tempe

Her career at least in the nearer term is effectively done.

But is it? She can still ride and teach, she just can’t compete for some unknown period of time. She seems to have enough defenders, on this board and elsewhere, that she can continue with her career in horses even if it looks different from before.

[Alterration]

@2bayboys

But is it? She can still ride and teach, she just can’t compete for some unknown period of time. She seems to have enough defenders, on this board and elsewhere, that she can continue with her career in horses even if it looks different from before.

I haven’t seen anyone defending her, am I missing it?

[jvanrens]

@Scribbler

So it looks like Alicia Dickinson reported the video. She is an ex real estate agent and ammie dressage rider who has created an online subscription service called Dressage Institute that promises to Explain Dressage to other confused ammies. She doesn’t give any tips away free but says she had so many questions when she started about right and wrong.

Ok. But if two years ago she was witnessing this “training” without understanding it was wrong, I don’t really trust her depth of knowledge to be asking for paid subscriptions to her educational platform!

So hardly a scared 19 year old then? Unless her real estate career started really young and was very short.