Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[J-Lu]

We’ll agree to disagree here. My OWN horse will open his mouth like this sometimes when he is disagreeing with working sometimes when he feels like he shouldn’t be working. Neither rein looks overly tight in the above picture and that looks like the “worst” photo that the photographer got. It’s a moment in time. Sometimes, horses have their own opinions. I watched Werth warm-up and ride and there was nothing cruel about her riding. Horses have personalities, too. The above horse is not behind the vertical and the reins aren’t cranked. It looks like someone was posting the worse possible photo.

I’d want to see the video or more photos before criticizing Werth.

[skydy]

@J-Lu

We’ll agree to disagree here. My OWN horse will open his mouth like this sometimes when he is disagreeing with working sometimes when he feels like he shouldn’t be working. Neither rein looks overly tight in the above picture and that looks like the “worst” photo that the photographer got. It’s a moment in time. Sometimes, horses have their own opinions. I watched Werth warm-up and ride and there was nothing cruel about her riding. Horses have personalities, too. The above horse is not behind the vertical and the reins aren’t cranked. It looks like someone was posting the worse possible photo.

I’d want to see the video or more photos before criticizing Werth.

Interesting. When your horse does this is his tongue pulled up and blue? It’s a “moment in time” when the circulation is impaired.

[J-Lu]

No. But I’d need to see more photos to conclude this horse’s tongue is blue. The reins aren’t very tight and most curbs on the market have tongue relief. If they don’t, they rest on the bars and give the tongue some relief. The bradoon rests on the bars and work on the roof of the mouth if single jointed. Hell, even western riders in a spade bit (have you seen one?) don’t experience blue tongues. I would honestly need to see proof that the tongue is blue in order to agree with this. In dressage, at FEI, bits are checked and have to be compliant with the rules.

[skydy]

I’m not an idiot. I have ridden horses in spade bits as a junior. I have ridden many horses in a full bridle. When used properly they never result in gaping mouths, let alone blue tongues.

If your horse does this and you think this photo is OK, I have no words.

[J-Lu]

I never said you were an idiot. Why would you say that? We will agree to disagree on this photograph if you can’t talk further about it…

[skydy]

You asked if I had ever “seen a spade bit”. I rode as a junior in them frequently. Yes, I have “seen a spade”, they are not bits that are ridden on contact,and there are no gaping mouths when that or any other curb bit is used properly.

Horses should not have gaping mouths in Grand Prix Dressage. The fact that it is commonplace and seemingly acceptable to some, is the issue.

[J-Lu]

Yes, I did ask you that. They are considered as harsh bits if you don’t know what you’re doing. I have several close friends that ride in them who have n3ever seen a blue tongue.

If they don’t, how do you propose a commercial curb or bradoon cuts of circulation the the tongue? wouldn’t a horse evade that? How PHYSICALLY does a commercial curb or bradoon cut off the circulation to the tongue? If a spade doesn’t, how does a curb do it? Lets look at the mechanics of each bit.

Oh please, there are plenty of gaping mouths with spades. They often have rollers to work the tongue. No dressage curb has a roller to my knowledge.

Horses are sentient beings. They decide how they act on any given day. To say that NO GP level horses have gaping mouths suggest that you haven’t been around many GP horses. OF COURSE some will disagree with the work, either a mare in heat, a stallion who has his mind on other things or a gelding who doesn’t feel like putting in his all that day. They are their own selves and have an opinion in their work. They aren’t “clones” happy to do what the rider says.

GP level horses have opinions. They aren’t “beaten into submission”. They have opinions in their work and are not easy to ride. That’s why they have the “spark” to do well in the show ring. They aren’t subservient or clones. Lots of top dressage riders show their training horses to give them new experiences - the horses aren’t 100% solid yet.

I watched Cross country today. There were younger horses who made mistakes. Some horses got really tired and made mistakes. Michael Jung’s horse got tripped up over a fence. Were they not worthy to be there according to you? They could have broken legs.

I don’t yet buy your argument because of the fact of the mechanics of bits. What bits cause a “blue tongue” and how are they used to achieve a blue tongue? Give me mechanics that I can understand. It seems like it could happen if the horse is pulled and kept there behind the vertical (which lessens the pressure of the bit on the tongue) but you only showed a snapshot of Werth’s horse on the vertical with it’s mouth open. I’m guessing you’ve never ridden a GP-level horse. They aren’t easy and have minds of their own. I can post pics of GP level horses with their mouths open if you’d like. That’s tough work. Do the judges count that down? Are they in on it?

[Knights_Mom]

@george

I’m really baffled by the pushes by horse people to not include horses in the Olympics. What will that accomplish? If it’s not an Olympic sport, that will do nothing to curb abuse. World Championships and Young Horse Championships will just take the place of Olympics in prestige but that will not stop the abuse. Im in no way advocating for the continuation of the current blind eye towards abuse but I’m genuinely curious about what reasons people have to ban horse sports from the Olympics. In my mind this is an FEI problem, not an IOC problem.

Because they are so wildly frustrated with all the abuse, they are desperate for change… ANY change.

[Joanne]

Isn’t a tongue with normal circulation supposed to be pinkish?

[Knights_Mom]

Yes. This is not a complimentary picture. It looks bad.

[Casey09]

Mind my asking what post?

[skydy]

@J-Lu

Yes, I did ask you that. They are considered as harsh bits if you don’t know what you’re doing. I have several close friends that ride in them who have n3ever seen a blue tongue.

I didn’t say that “no grand prix horses have gaping mouths”. I said that they shouldn’t have gaping mouths and blue tongues because Grand Prix dressage riders should “know what they are doing.”

Spades are only considered "harsh bits "when used by ignorant people who are not educated in how to use them.
Apparently short shanked dressage curbs are being misused at the highest level, by people who should know what they’re doing.

If you have ever "seen a spade " let alone ridden with one, you would know that they are not bits that are used with contact, so no gaping mouths or blue tongues.

Apples and oranges. Don’t try to excuse Grand Prix Dressage blue tongues and gaping mouth abuse by saying “what about spade bits”. It doesn’t fly. There is no excuse for gaping mouths or curled tongues anywhere in horse sport, and certainly not in Grand Prix dressage. Period.

Asking me if I have “ever seen a spade” is offensive. You are assuming that I am ignorant.
You apparently have known people who have ridden abusively in spade bits, but you have no personal experience with bridle horses?

Sorry, I am tired of the excuses for the hauling on the bits by the top level riders in GP dressage.

[M1ssmouse]

The whole thing is just so sad,sad for horses, sad for horse sports and of course for a rider who behaved horribly and has been caught on camera doing it. I’m getting grief for not agreeing to be piled in with people that feel bad because they’ve lost control of themselves with horses in their time and now feel guilty. I’ve stood up to many riders at competitions mistreating horses when everyone else turned away and said nothing, I’ll never stop doing that. Only two weeks ago I stopped the trial of one of our jumpers because the trainer was insisting their client wear spurs on our 5 year old who’d never had anyone use them on him, they were also surprised that our rider doesn’t carry a stick either. I’ll keep going my way.

[sascha]

I will see if I can send a link by PM. I’m not “outing” here as the truly upsetting stuff is written by someone I don’t know about something many years ago, right around the time I had switched over from someone who had moved back to Europe. I commented that the changeover was seamless. They said, “We’re all the same. We all learned the same way.” That has new meaning to me now

[TwiSedai]

@sascha

That makes a lot more sense than a random direct message which is how your post came across.

I disagree. I have seen and heard celebrities, athletes, authors, etc from all walks of life be so appreciative of all those little messages of support. They might not get to respond to them, but either they see them or their PR team does and can pass along the overall sentiments.

@Manni01

.i don’t think anybody rides like this anymore….

You know, it actually reminded me of some of the really good eventing dressage tests I’ve seen. I’ve also seen comments about how different “eventing” dressage is from “real” dressage, and…yeah, it is. For sure. Not to say all dressage in eventing is that fluid and relaxed, but the top scores aren’t necessarily really flashy, and are kind of zen and relaxing to watch.

@Knights_Mom

When we need to ASK if beating a horse with a whip 24 times is abusive

I don’t think anyone is asking…pretty much everyone has said it’s absolutely abuse.

[sascha]

@TwiSedai

I have seen and heard celebrities, athletes, authors, etc from all walks of life be so appreciative of all those little messages of support. They might not get to respond to them, but either they see them or their PR team does and can pass along the overall sentiments.

Keep on believing what they tell you. It makes them seem much more connected to their audience

[TwiSedai]

Who cares if they don’t ever see it anyways. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. You certainly don’t know for sure. Not sure why you are gatekeeping people being kind to one another. Does it really affect you that much?

[sascha]

I’m sorry that facts about the way these things actually work upset you so much! My apologies for striking a nerve with a tuning fork!

[Knights_Mom]

@TwiSedai

@sascha

That makes a lot more sense than a random direct message which is how your post came across.

I disagree. I have seen and heard celebrities, athletes, authors, etc from all walks of life be so appreciative of all those little messages of support. They might not get to respond to them, but either they see them or their PR team does and can pass along the overall sentiments.

@Manni01

.i don’t think anybody rides like this anymore….

You know, it actually reminded me of some of the really good eventing dressage tests I’ve seen. I’ve also seen comments about how different “eventing” dressage is from “real” dressage, and…yeah, it is. For sure. Not to say all dressage in eventing is that fluid and relaxed, but the top scores aren’t necessarily really flashy, and are kind of zen and relaxing to watch.

@Knights_Mom

When we need to ASK if beating a horse with a whip 24 times is abusive

I don’t think anyone is asking…pretty much everyone has said it’s absolutely abuse.

No there are people debating the abusiveness on FB.

[kt]

@Casey09

Mind my asking what post?

This is the original FB post by veterinarian Ethan Romas-Hill. It now has 2.6K shares. When one of my FB friends recently shared it in support of CD, I replied with basically a polite WTF comment. Someone else agreed. Friend took her post down with a few hours, I guess to avoid drama.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/vY93NjBgA3UqsXZx/?