Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[K_VanOlst]

@Bluey

That is not side reins, don’t know if that strap arrangement has a name.

They look like Lauffer reins used incredibly incorrectly

[Knights_Mom]

@VodkaRedbullx2

The market demands it too…if you have a basic generic green horse nobody thinks it’s “trained” if it’s head isn’t in a “frame”…I can get the horse sold faster if I spend more time lunging it in sidereins than actually riding it and having giving it life experience.

Well now this is the problem, isn’t it? And this is what people are doing and how they are using side reins.

[DownYonder]

@Bluey

Surprised to hear that may not be so today in some places?

Not in any of the barns I have been in over the past 40+ years - save on two occasions. My first dressage instructor had been taught by Michael Handler, who learned from his father Hans Handler (director of the SRS from 1965-1974 - his teacher was Col. Alois Podhajsky). I learned proper lunging techniques at the very beginning of my foray into dressage - which luckily was my first serious involvement with horses (I had previously not been much involved with horses other than the occasional trail ride on a rented or loaned horse).

And when I got my first young horse - a 3 y/o lightly started Appaloosa gelding - I had an instructor who was a transplant from Germany and had been taught by a master horse starter who had been taught by an old German master of lunging, long-lining, and work in hand. That old master was not really known outside of Germany and I have sadly long forgotten his name but he was apparently a “best kept secret” used by many noted training establishments in Germany. I was told that like all the old masters, he believed in “slow and steady” and did not/would not rush a horse through training or skip steps to meet some arbitrary schedule set by the owner, etc. If training a horse correctly took time, it took time - and every horse was trained according to its own talents and gifts.

[Knights_Mom]

@DownYonder

Posting a photo of incorrect and abusive use of side reins or draw reins with the insinuation that all “experts” use that technique is hyperbole intended to inflame the passions of the uninitiated. As in all things in the equine world, there are “experts” who cross the line and abuse their power over the horse via improper use of “gadgets” and techniques, and “experts” who properly know when and how to use a gadget or technique and who train using a kinder, gentler, and more emphatic approach.

This is not an attempt at drama. I’m showing how many/majority/you decide use them. Even very well known trainers. And that’s exactly my point. This is how they are used most often. If such “mastery” is required for their use, why haven’t I seen this alleged mastery used anywhere?

I’m not a Martian. I’ve been to shows and clinics and barns for 5 decades now. And this is what I see.

If you know of any esteemed use in video, please do share. I’d love to see it.

[Bogey2]

That is not a recent picture…it has been around a few years. So did you actually see this pony in the contraption? Have you seen it at all this clinics you attend?

[DownYonder]

@Knights_Mom

This is how they are used most often.

KM, with all due respect - that is more hyperbole. You do not know THAT is how they are used most often. First off, the gadget shown in your photo is not traditional side reins. They are more like Lauffer or Phillip reins - and they are improperly set and improperly adjusted. Furthermore, I have seen side reins adjusted too long nearly as much as I have seen them adjusted too short - and too long doesn’t do the horse any favors, either, esp. if they are the kind with a heavy rubber donut in them that bounces with every stride the horse takes. Although too long is for sure better than way too short, bouncing reins are a detriment to developing a horse that is confident of contact - no matter if the bounce is caused by the side rein itself, or by a rider with uneducated or unsympathetic hands.

I get it that you are passionate about horse welfare. So are the rest of us here. But some of us understand that just because a handful of well-known trainers have been exposed using questionable/harsh/abusive training techniques does not necessarily mean that the tool they are using is in itself abusive. Side reins, lunging whips, et al have their place in training and instead of putting Olympians and other top riders on a pedestal, we should be idolizing the many nameless trainers who are correctly, methodically, and emphatically developing their horses.

[Knights_Mom]

No I do NOT know that most horses aren’t lunged this way. After seeing video after video of “top” trainers and their abusive ways why would I doubt my eyes and my experience? I know my eyes are qualified to tell the difference.

In a world where gold medalist CDJ seems ok for repeatedly BEATING a horse for absolutely no legit reason, to the Power & Paint trussing up, to Anky and electrified spurs to Helgstrand and others blue tongues, why on earth would I take YOUR word that most people (as in trainers) don’t do this? I trust my own observations & experience far more.

And I picked this pic because it’s an egregious use of side reins or whatever trussing up that is that I remembered because of the brouhaha the release of the video made.

Please don’t insult me by implying my judgment is lacking in this regard. In addition to the famous abusers there are anonymous abusers too BECAUSE THEY COPY WHAT WINNERS DO.

Now of course there are good trainers. But until I see side reins used in such a way that they help the horse and are used properly, my position remains that most horses are lunged incorrectly with side reins.

Like I said before, I’d love to see video with side reins that is allegedly correct.

[Bogey2]

@Knights_Mom

Like I said before, I’d love to see video with side reins that is allegedly correct.

So you lack the education to know when it is correct?

[Knights_Mom]

@Bogey2

@Knights_Mom

Like I said before, I’d love to see video with side reins that is allegedly correct.

So you lack the education to know when it is correct?

Hardly. I’d also love to see video of an actual Bigfoot and the Loch Ness monster. It’s fun to see things that normally don’t exist.

[DownYonder]

So you cited less than a dozen instances of trainers abusing horses through misuse of training tools. And you think that justifies throwing all trainers and all training aids under the bus?

Well, whatever.

[DownYonder]

@Knights_Mom

It’s fun to see things that normally don’t exist.

Now you are being ridiculous.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

Yes. Lauffer reins or Vienna side reins used terribly.

[Knights_Mom]

@DownYonder

So you cited less than a dozen instances of trainers abusing horses through misuse of training tools. And you think that justifies throwing all trainers and all training aids under the bus?

Well, whatever.

Show me where I said all do it.

[Knights_Mom]

@DownYonder

@Knights_Mom

It’s fun to see things that normally don’t exist.

Now you are being ridiculous.

Perhaps I’m not the one being ridiculous.

[Bogey2]

I would change the word to ignorant. Your comments on side reins show that you have a big hole in your knowledge of conformation, training etc. I have no idea what your background is but you can hurt a horse more by riding it upside down than by using sidereins appropriately.

[Knights_Mom]

Show me video of someone using side reins appropriately then.

I do not ride my horse inverted. Now you sound like Hester when he proclaimed to me on my page “I bet you bounce on your horse’s back” when I disputed the merits of his seesaw reined LDR.

Your ad hominem attacks on me mean nothing as you are using your faulty assumption of my knowledge base as your primary argument.

Just show me someone lunging well in side reins getting the horse to stretch over his back with a telescoping neck into an open throatlatch, reaching neck.

Here’s a hint: were I you I’d probably look for Manolo Mendez videos. But an Olympian? Good luck.

[GraceLikeRain]

@Knights_Mom

Just show me someone lunging well in side reins getting the horse to stretch over his back with a telescoping neck into an open throatlatch, reaching neck.

@Knights_Mom

But an Olympian? Good luck.

Someone or an Olympian?

[kenyarider]

I have a question for the group. It appears that there were (are) photos of some of the Olympic dressage horses competing in the Games with blue tongues. I assume that the stewards are watching warm ups so rolkur can’t really be a causation, so what is causing the blue tongues if not rolkur? Do they not check the nose bands either before or after they show? I’m just asking because I don’t see how that could happen under the stewards’ noses. Of course, the photos could be fake I suppose.

[Knights_Mom]

@kenyarider

I have a question for the group. It appears that there were (are) photos of some of the Olympic dressage horses competing in the Games with blue tongues. I assume that the stewards are watching warm ups so rolkur can’t really be a causation, so what is causing the blue tongues if not rolkur? Do they not check the nose bands either before or after they show? I’m just asking because I don’t see how that could happen under the stewards’ noses. Of course, the photos could be fake I suppose.

The FEI hired a photographer and those pics also show blue tongues.

The stewards are not calling out rollkur or LDR. Only 1 rider was sanctioned for rollkur and they were not a top contender.

[Knights_Mom]

@GraceLikeRain

@Knights_Mom

Just show me someone lunging well in side reins getting the horse to stretch over his back with a telescoping neck into an open throatlatch, reaching neck.

@Knights_Mom

But an Olympian? Good luck.

Someone or an Olympian?

Dealer’s choice.