Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[pluvinel]

@FitzE

Can you maybe help me see why you think it is a good thing?

If you have never used side reins, I would suggest that an internet BB is not the place to start learning their use. Ya know…perhaps a national school rider might illustrate their use. Here is a picture from the Real Escuela de Jerez in Spain with a horse in side reins

And the Spanish Riding School in Vienna

Spanish Riding School Haute Ecole (Airs Above The Ground) White Lipizzaner...

As far as the rider with the reins on the belt, again, an internet BB is not the place to start to learn their use. Perhaps take a trip to Spain and you can learn their use and history.

[FitzE]

Hmmm, we seem to be crossing wires here: I have zero desire to use side reins. Ever. I’m merely responding to your, if I’m being honest, rather condescending:

@pluvinel

I guess you guys have never used side reins.

Just saying, in my case, you guess correctly. Further to your most recent post, I have no interest in them so, fear not.

I’m not asking about how to learn the use of these gadgets. I’m very straightforwardly asking YOU to articulate what YOU think is good about the man riding his horse with it’s head fixed BTV with no ability to relieve that pressure for the whole ride. Can YOU explain what YOU are seeing that is good here?

I don’t want to hear more condescension about where I should go to learn to use a gadget I’ve no intention of every using (and I have a home in Europe so maybe slow your roll on the holier than thou ‘get thee to Europe’ stuff ).

Just articulate for those of us watching the videos you presented what you see as being good about them, in particular I wonder about the first rider with his horse’s head cranked in. What are seeing as good or ‘good riding’ wrt that technique? Not how do you do it/how do you use those things: what about this riding/training is positive and nonabusive given that we are seeing horses with their heads fixed by non-elastic reins into one position BTV?

[pluvinel]

@FitzE

I’m not asking about how to learn the use of these gadgets. I’m very straightforwardly asking YOU to articulate what YOU think is good about the man riding his horse with it’s head fixed BTV with no ability to relieve that pressure for the whole ride. Can YOU explain what YOU are seeing that is good here?

So, let’s agree to disagree. There is no way to explain in an internet BB about the proper use of side reins. You say you have no interest in learning about these devices. It is kind of like religion. You believe in your god, I believe in mine.

As far as

@FitzE

I don’t want to hear more condescension about where I should go to learn to use a gadget I’ve no intention of every using (and I have a home in Europe so maybe slow your roll on the holier than thou ‘get thee to Europe’ stuff

Ok…you don’t want to learn. I get it.

I bring up Europe because it has a much longer equestrian tradition than the US. I am just highlighting well-regarded organizations that might…just maybe…have something to teach us after a few hundred years of experience.

Perhaps a trip to Jerez, or Chantilly, or Lisbon…or even to Rapperswil Switzerland and the Circus Knie (former home of George Wahl, also former Chief Rider at the Spanish Riding School and trainer of Christine Stuckleberger and her very difficult horse Granat) can be enlightening.

[Bluey]

From all that I would assume not a professional in the horse world.

In our years to become one, part of our education was also what all sorts of training methods and tools are there, how and why they evolved thru centuries of horsemanship and how to use them properly.
Embedded in that was the ethic questions of training and tool use.

My point, a complete horseman tends to have a passion for all horse, learns and teaches and discussed all it has learned, is how we can do best for our horses.

Especially in the information age where all sorts of knowledge is right there in seconds, it seems strange that some choose to dismiss offhand parts of what makes training horses so very interesting, all kinds of techniques, without knowing what they are, how used and when and how not to.

[FitzE]

Thank you for that articulate and well reasoned response. I appreciate you taking the time to do that rather than just condescending and name dropping various cities in Europe.

Since you do have a background in these things can you tell me anything about that first video with the head crank back BTV? I was always taught that’s exactly where you don’t want the horse’s head to be so I’m really confused by that particular rider/trainer being held up as an example of nonabusive riding. In other words, how is that different from rollkur?

[FitzE]

@Bluey

From all that I would assume not a professional in the horse world.

100% correct!

[pluvinel]

@FitzE

Since you do have a background in these things can you tell me anything about that first video with the head crank back BTV?

I assume you are talking about the video of Jesus Morales. Did you watch the video? If you did, maybe you will see that the reins go slack. The horse’s name is Halcon. He said the two of them were like an old married couple with perfect understanding between each other.

[carmanah]

OMG Hypocrisy meet ironic??. If AVG or PK or AH had been riding the horse in the “good” pic the vitriol would have been heard around the world! It does not matter to the horse if there are human hands at the end of the reins or a pretty silver snap - it feels exactly the same. Arguably worse in the “good” pix as at least the human hand can give. If it’s bad riding it’s BAD RIDING period. The “bad” pix is a random wiki image from a quick rolkur search.

This is about the effect on the horse - and not the bedazzled human spectacle. And for the record - the gaping mouth on the good pix looks pretty damn uncomfortable to me.

Honestly the rationalization by some is gob-smacking.

[carmanah]

Also before anyone gets their panties in a wad…some folks love to post a pix of a moment in time and hold this up as proof of bad riding. Personally I find that kind of proof laughable. Pots and kettles and all that.

[Fiesta01]

@Bluey

50+ years ago the Foxcroft girls equestrian team out of California gave exhibitions of several together riding to the wire.

Foxfield, Westlake Village, CA. My pre-university barn.

ETA: Oops. See poltroon already identified it.

[Fiesta01]

@pluvinel

There is no way to explain in an internet BB about the proper use of side reins.

Dressage rider here. I only ever used side reins during lunging. Looser to begin with, slowly shortening as the horse’s back warmed up and they came more through and were “talking” with my hand. Never, ever would I make side reins force the horse behind the vertical. So, put me on @FitzE 's team.

[Knights_Mom]

I never use side reins. Or training Ws or any form of trussing up a horse. Hands can give. Fixed reins cannot.

Hands give and the give is the reward. Side reins impose. They offer nothing to bring the horse to seek the bit. Rather, side reins offer a limit and the horse learns to remain behind the limit as that is the only reward to be had.

If long enough they are better than too tight but then what’s the point? The quality of the contact with the hand is far superior as long as that hand is educated and feeling.

[Bluey]

Side reins is one more tool to help horses learn body awareness.
Standard side reins are not a sold restrictive band. They come in all kinds of give to them and by definition are made with some stretch to them.
People at times use solid materials like rope or reins themselves as side reins, but those are not side reins, they lack that important small give to them that works as a pre signal to the horse that a restriction is coming.

We were taught how to apply them properly, as a longing aid.
They can be said to be a bit like the tape so many olympians use themselves in specific parts of their bodies to control and/or support range of movement.

We use side reins some times, set very long, as in starting colts in a circle so they don’t drift with the outside shoulder as they tend to initially.
Horse has been previously taught about giving to restrictions and following without resistances when asked.
We do set the outside side rein one hole longer to help give a hint of the circle.
Longe whip after proper introduction becomes an extension of our arm.
Is used to talk with the horse, indicating thru it’s energy level how much of an effort at every gait, helping horse as it moves use their body more effectively so all parts work in unison and balanced in movement.

The side reins, once the horse educated further can be used in several ways, your imagination the limit.
They can also be misused as any other tool can, but misuse is in their improper use, not inherent to them.

[Knights_Mom]

This is how the “experts” use them it seems.

[Bluey]

That is not side reins, don’t know if that strap arrangement has a name.
Seems some kind of tied solid draw reins?

Some people do all kinds of goofy things.

[Mersidoats]

I think that’s a good example of how not to use them, but let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water. A single outside side rein is a very useful tool for a young horse on the longe - helps with lateral stability and provides tactile feedback about the state and place of his outside shoulder. And you can start to introduce the idea of inside hind into the outside rein. A well placed side rein, correctly adjusted, gives immediate feedback, unlike a human hand that might give too quickly or too slowly. Running side reins in a v formation on either side help teach a horse how to scope the neck, and provide lateral stability, similar to a wide and low hand on a baby.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

Sidereins are a tool. At some point you have to teach them how to go forward into contact…otherwise you’re going to have a horse that’s going to suck back stick a leg and rear. You can teach that from the saddle too but I think it’s easier to teach the response from the ground first.

The points about using them for straightness too - nobody wants to ride drunk wiggly shoulders.

The market demands it too…if you have a basic generic green horse nobody thinks it’s “trained” if it’s head isn’t in a “frame”…I can get the horse sold faster if I spend more time lunging it in sidereins than actually riding it and having giving it life experience.

Later on as a horse develops sometimes you need them to teach that canter work and start to ask for more collection.

Sidereins come really elastic nowadays, at least the cheap flimsy on Amazon and I like those ones because they are forgiving.

They shouldn’t pull the head down or close the poll.

[Bogey2]

Yes…my large Dutch horse was a born curler and the rare occasions I lunged him he needed side reins to help keep him pushing from behind, over his back and up in the poll.
I think some people just don’t understand that the correct use is a good thing!

[DownYonder]

Properly adjusted side reins help a horse maintain balance in forward movement and transitions and are especially useful to young horses who do not yet have the musculature to maintain the bridge from stride to stride. They teach the horse that going forward into a soft yet steady contact with the bit is “okay” and they can trust the bit and rely on that contact. That kind of introduction to the bit is actually a kinder way to start youngsters than having their mouth hit by a rider trying to stay in sync with a horse who has not yet learned how to keep itself in balance in movement - and again, esp. when it does not yet have the musculature to hold itself in balance. And don’t forget that a young or green horse just learning to stay in balance while moving back to front has a much harder time doing it carrying a rider than in carrying just itself - even when the rider is gifted in keeping his/her own body in control.

Posting a photo of incorrect and abusive use of side reins or draw reins with the insinuation that all “experts” use that technique is hyperbole intended to inflame the passions of the uninitiated. As in all things in the equine world, there are “experts” who cross the line and abuse their power over the horse via improper use of “gadgets” and techniques, and “experts” who properly know when and how to use a gadget or technique and who train using a kinder, gentler, and more emphatic approach.

I will also add that except on rare occasions or in institutions such as SRS or Cadre Noir, the proper use of side reins - even proper lunging techniques - is sadly not taught to people who are starting out on their journey learning how to train. People may get a 60 second lesson one time on how to use side reins, which they promptly forget - or don’t really grasp - and there is no “master trainer” who checks their equipment every single time they lunge or ride and watches their sessions with an experienced and keen eye and is ready to jump in and correct things as needed. The old art and the old masters are fading away, to be replaced by the likes of Helgstrand, Parra, van Baalen, van Grunsven, Janssen, Kittel, etc. - and it is a travesty that they will one day be considered the ODGs of dressage.

[Bluey]

It was 50+ years ago, but as assistant instructors working to become instructors, we had one or more apprentices working to become assistants.
We carefully taught them the concepts and educated their eye, along with learning how to with us along doing it and they taking over and working until they had it pat.
If we saw someone struggling, apprentice or assistant, we asked and helped.
No one in those programs was left alone, they had to pass tests that would have reflected on our faulty teaching if we didn’t.

Even our BNT instructor kept an eye on everyone and expected us as eyes on the ground to help him with any questions that you as the rider some times can’t see or feel from on a horse.

Surprised to hear that may not be so today in some places?