Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Knights_Mom]

Western horses are often trained that riding them means using body, not hands.

Years ago I had such a horse. My club, of which I was president at the time, had agreed to do riding demonstrations at a local city park. I had to go. But I also had a state test to get the job I’d eventually have. So I went to take my test and my horse went to the park.

After the test, one of my friends ended up having to ride my horse. She was a barrel racer but did other stuff too like team penning.

We did not have any show practiced and we winged it. I was announcing and it struck me that we needed to wow the crowd. I went up to my horse with my friend and told her to trust me. I knew my horse. I removed the bridle leaving only a lead line around his neck. I then had her do a series of things, bridleless, in front of the crowd, in an arena made with snow fencing.

It went great, complete with sliding stops, spins etc. To this day, decades later, she remembers the day fondly.

For many western horses, this is how it is.

[pluvinel]

@Aussie_2020

The first video is very cool, the second is ghastly with the person standing water skiing off the horses’ faces. No thanks.

Can all you do is look for negatives? The “skiing off the horses’ faces” are from riders doing “roman riding”…it has nothing to do with dressage. Did you watch the video? What did you think of the piaffe with no hands at 1:22.

[pluvinel]

@libgrrl

That video (Brendan) drives me nuts – not that it isn’t lovely riding – but because so many less informed or non-horse people think that bridles are no longer needed at all (the non-horse folks don’t notice the neck loop and think it is “completely free!”) Brendan definitely trains with a bridle. One can ride on the neck loop too – and it is still very much pressure.

You say “it is lovely riding” and then go diss/disparage the rider. Color me confused.

Everyone talks about the stressful environment in a show situation as reason/excuse why dressage horses sometimes blow up. And here you have a lovely rider executing a jump course with no bridle.

Please explain why the 2nd video doesn’t show excellent riding and horsemanship. Explain how/why dressage couldn’t take some lessons about what is possible. And that perhaps…just perhaps…crank nosebands and blue tongues are not needed to ride a successful dressage test.

[Aussie_2020]

I didn’t have to “look for the negatives” they were right there. As for the piaffe with no hands, well the reins are fixed to the saddle (or something) restricting the horses head in one position so I wouldn’t call that riding with no hands. I bet that horse is trained using hand to rein. This is just a show, an exhibit, it’s not horsemanship.

I’ve even seen a guy that jumps a car with two horses, one foot on each horse. If I find a video or pix of him I’ll look to see if he is also a water skier.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

I think that video is so great, but lets note that his ex wife melanie was doing it first and he gets all the credit.

[pluvinel]

@Aussie_2020

As for the piaffe with no hands, well the reins are fixed to the saddle (or something) restricting the horses head in one position so I wouldn’t call that riding with no hands. I bet that horse is trained using hand to rein. This is just a show, an exhibit, it’s not horsemanship.

Expand your horizons…this is a type of riding that allows the rider to be free with both hands when working. Here is an exhibition by Jesus Morales

Doma Vaquera

I took lessons from him and the last thing he does training “hand to rein.” It is actually called "riding from the seat.

@Aussie_2020

I’ve even seen a guy that jumps a car with two horses, one foot on each horse.

You might be thinking of Lorenzo

LORENZO INTERNATIONAL HORSE SHOW 2018

[FitzE]

Honest question from a not-dressage person: isn’t the first horse tied down BTV? That’s what it looks like to me but admittedly it’s not my area.

[Aussie_2020]

Why do the horses need to have their faces cranked in and set? If you’re going to ride bridle-less take the damn thing off, don’t crank them into a head position.

My horizon is plenty broad, but I don’t get all girlish over a man pretending he is a horseman.

[Aussie_2020]

That’s what I see, and I wonder what kind of bit they’re using.

[libgrrl]

It was a lovely ride (and confession – that is a different and newer Brendan video. He made a big “oops” in the first one.) My complaint with these (not blaming Brendan!) is that it sets up unrealistic expectations. That horse was still trained with a bridle, but there are a whole lotta folks out there that will insist that this is evidence that all horses can be trained and showed without a bridle, and it isn’t quite that simple, as you know. Brendan himself admits that it would be tougher to “move up” this way, but he may be inclined to try. Good on him! That doesn’t mean that everyone can do it, and it doesn’t mean that a neck loop can’t be too much pressure in and of itself.

[FitzE]

Thanks, that’s what I see, too. In fact, that looks potentially worse then a person forcing a horse BTV as at least there is an option for that person to release the pressure. In this set up, the pressure is constant throughout until the end of the performance with no relief possible. It looks really awful to me, that first one.

[jvanrens]

@pluvinel

@Knights_Mom

It’s the pressure to win. The pressure to give their clients results. That goes away removing the competition setting.

I agree

@Knights_Mom

Make it art like ballet and the emphasis will be on other stuff.

Then the “art” will be belittled, disparaged, maligned, and/or slandered by the DQ’s. Have you heard how people use the term “like a circus horse” in a pejorative manner?

@Knights_Mom

The ballet would then get corrupted probably too.

I would agree with this, but would add that it probably depends on what the “reward system” is. Cavalia seems to draw in paying audiences and wow them with equestrian art. I think they will be in California this year

https://youtu.be/pOy_51yJaE4?list=PLE36B2E12D7C9BC3A&t=86

Bartabas did it with the sold-out show Eclipse in NYC. Watch the “no hands piaffe” at 1:22. No blue tongues involved.
https://youtu.be/TCoekfC_yjI?t=82

And this looks good to you how? So he’s water skiing off a snaffle instead of a double,

[pluvinel]

@jvanrens

And this looks good to you how? So he’s water skiing off a snaffle instead of a double,

And you continue to ignore the simple fact that this is not a mounted ride, but a person standing on the horse’s back doing roman riding…

I was there at this show when it played in NYC. This is a moment in time for what was an amazing exhibition by Bartabas’ riders in the show…

Bartabas is the person who was given the concession by the French government to host the exhibitions to show example of the French equestrian tradition at Versailles at the Equestrian Academy of Versailles.

He beat out Michel Henriquet for the concession…whose wife, Catherine Henriquet, Olympic team rider and French national dressage champion.

[pluvinel]

@FitzE

Thanks, that’s what I see, too. In fact, that looks potentially worse then a person forcing a horse BTV as at least there is an option for that person to release the pressure. In this set up, the pressure is constant throughout until the end of the performance with no relief possible.

I guess you guys have never used side reins.

[FitzE]

I have not. If they had some elasticity I could see them being a bit better. But a static tie down BTV looks really bad to me and I don’t see where the horse gets any relief for doing something right or softening or anything if there is no give and take, just a fixed point.

It reminds me of the bad old days of tightened up check reins.

[jvanrens]

@pluvinel

And you continue to ignore the simple fact that this is not a mounted ride, but a person standing on the horse’s back doing roman riding…

There is still a pair of hands or maybe a hand on the end of those reins. The person on the end of those reins is still mounted. They might be standing instead of sitting, but they are on the horses backs. As much as I want to admire Roman Riding, and I do so admire the ability to stand on two different horses while cantering, the hanging off their mouths, doesn’t do much for me.

[FitzE]

@pluvinel

Bartabas is the person who was given the concession by the French government to host the exhibitions to show example of the French equestrian tradition at Versailles at the Equestrian Academy of Versailles.

But if no whistleblower had come forward, Helgstrand could have been given just such a concession if his country was hosting. Or Parras in the US. Or any of them. Getting this concession does not in any way indicate that his training methods and riding are good or bad. That is precisely what we are all learning in threads like these: those luminaries who get all the awards and concessions and are held up as ideals of the sport often turn out to be quite the opposite.

I’m not saying this Bartabas person is bad. I’m saying his being held up by his country as the pinnacle of the sport is not dispositive of whether or not his training methods and riding are nonabusive. This is exactly why many here are genuinely sad about CD - they and others and even her own nation thought she was the best of the best with no abuse and was given all the buttons and bows and grants, etc.

[pluvinel]

@jvanrens

the hanging off their mouths, doesn’t do much for me.

How do you know they are “hanging off their mouths?” Have you never done a BIG half-halt?..Like maybe when you have a leg on each horse? Did you watch the clip of the roman riding? Or are you simply choosing to pontificate from a snapshot in time where youtube posted a thumbnail?

But…we can agree to disagree. Each to their own.

[pluvinel]

@FitzE

I have not.

Ok, you have never used side reins…then perhaps you should discuss with the FEI vaulting committee on their allowing the use of side reins in competitions.

[FitzE]

I don’t see why I would. We are discussing dressage here. That man riding with his horse cranked BTV with no elasticity or give whatsoever does not seem admirable to me in any way. I don’t know what even more people thinking it’s good to crank a horse BTV with a fixed-length rein would do to change my mind on that.

Can you maybe help me see why you think it is a good thing? I’m not discussing the people standing on horses, just the first man riding hands free but with the horses head absolutely fixed BTV. What is it that you are seeing that makes this good or effective or nonabusive or - maybe it’s best to ask it this way: what does that demonstrate to you and how is it better than the dressage training/riding that we were all discussing?