Charlotte withdrawing from Olympics?

[Bluey]

If that is so, I misunderstood, read that an outsider needed to monitor and PETA was suggested.
Glad that was not so.

I think one major problem in the US horse world is the lack of all standards, not even basic education and certification, real inspecting of premises, etc.

The everything goes is good as far as innovation, but maybe having a basic universal standard of horse knowledge required from professionals would help stop the clueless and/or abusive or at least provide a framework to monitor for a minimum proper level.

[Alterration]

I don’t know that it’s education. I mean sure, I’ve seen some eye popping things at lower level barns, but we are talking about the top here. I’m not disagreeing that we need it - it would solve a host of other issues, I just don’t think it would solve this particular one.

[Knights_Mom]

The top folks are rather knowledgeable. It’s the pressure to win. The pressure to give their clients results. That goes away removing the competition setting. Make it art like ballet and the emphasis will be on other stuff.

I’m not suggesting that is a fix BTW. The ballet would then get corrupted probably too.

[Alterration]

@Knights_Mom

The top folks are rather knowledgeable. It’s the pressure to win. The pressure to give their clients results. That goes away removing the competition setting. Make it art like ballet and the emphasis will be on other stuff.

I’m not suggesting that is a fix BTW. The ballet would then get corrupted probably too.

Agreed. The issue is that people are falliable and no matter what we do, there will always be room for people to shortcut, or be jerks. I don’t think there’s a silver bullet. I think there’s a slow moving train that continues to wobble toward kinder behavior and we’re just on it. Hopefully we can stay ahead of the public. That’s the hard part. The public is dumb. Just as a whole, they don’t “get” animals in general, and so while I appreciate that they want to be kind, I’ve seen a lot of dumb stuff come out of the public. So, riding has a PR problem and we need to solve it.

[Warmblood1]

I think restructuring competition at least or removing it from certain levels will drastically cut down abuse. Cull the drugging seen in some disciplines, get rid of the mandatory requirement for spurs and a double in dressage being a couple. Maybe set more time minimums for sports that involve speed. The goal of eliminating abuse may not be possible but it can certainly be cut down on.

[Knights_Mom]

And make the criteria different.

For instance, if I watch a horse go I look at the expression on their face. The horses expression, body tonus, relaxation, froth, veins popping, eyes bulging etc are just some things that catch my attention. We should judge more on that as the primary and THEN with a horse that is supple and relaxed showing proper expression, then go through the moves like horsey dancing sideways.

[RedHorses]

Veins pop when the horse needs to cool off. Horses living and working in hot climates can increase their surface vascularization (endurance riders train for it) to aid in cooling.

I commented somewhere else that we shouldn’t just abandon the current oversight organizations. If the kind trainers, riders and owners abandon FEI (for example) only the abusers are left, giving them even less incentive to change. Alternative organizations would take a long time to set up, determine rules, and get the buy in from equestrians.

Pushing for change won’t necessarily be faster, but it already has the buy in, and small changes will have a larger impact. Take the photo review for blue tongues at the Olympics. All the FEI did was call riders in for a chat this time, but if they manage to pass a suitable rule then riders can be eliminated in future. Having been called in for a chat warns all the riders that the rule can be enforced.

[Cowgirl]

Thank you! That is exactly what I meant. For some reason, there seems to be extremes of thought–the look away, this was a one off, sometimes horses need a good beating group and the PETA you should not ride horses let’s remove horses from the Olympics group. We don’t need to remove horses or do any extremes, we just need to demand ethical riding and training and heavily penalize when it is not ethical. No riders anonymously called to the principals office for a hand slap about blue tongues, but a “your blue tongue just earned you a yellow card–two more of those and you are suspended” firm approach. Intentional abuse, like you see on the Kruth and DJ videos earns suspensions. Protracted intentional abuse on multiple horses and/or humans like Parra and Helgstrand earns a permanent ban. Then we need new leaders and education. We need to redesign the young horse program so that four years olds aren’t expected to be developed to move like FEI horses. I get the ick when I watch that. It’s like toddlers in tiaras…

[Knights_Mom]

Bingo.

[pluvinel]

@Knights_Mom

It’s the pressure to win. The pressure to give their clients results. That goes away removing the competition setting.

I agree

@Knights_Mom

Make it art like ballet and the emphasis will be on other stuff.

Then the “art” will be belittled, disparaged, maligned, and/or slandered by the DQ’s. Have you heard how people use the term “like a circus horse” in a pejorative manner?

@Knights_Mom

The ballet would then get corrupted probably too.

I would agree with this, but would add that it probably depends on what the “reward system” is. Cavalia seems to draw in paying audiences and wow them with equestrian art. I think they will be in California this year

Discover Cavalia, the entertainment company founded by Normand Latourelle.

Bartabas did it with the sold-out show Eclipse in NYC. Watch the “no hands piaffe” at 1:22. No blue tongues involved.

Bartabas - Eclipse - une vidéo Artes

[MadTrotter]

I saw Cavalia and the best part was when the foals came out. They had a little routine…kinda. But it was so cute watching the actors improvise with the little scamps. Was very inspiring for my non-horsey friends too.

I’m not sure it’s a realistic to consider this a replacement for competitive international dressage. Ballet companies pretty much live and die by government grants and/or private foundational support.

The closest analogy is the SRS and last time this was discussed they were having issues supporting the program through ticket sales.

[pluvinel]

@MadTrotter

I saw Cavalia and the best part was when the foals came out. They had a little routine…kinda. But it was so cute watching the actors improvise with the little scamps. Was very inspiring for my non-horsey friends too.

I’m not sure it’s a realistic to consider this a replacement for competitive international dressage.

Pray tell, why not? You just said it was inspiring for your non-horsey friends.

@MadTrotter

Ballet companies pretty much live and die by government grants and/or private foundational support.

I don’t know the finances of ballet companies, but I venture to say that Cavalia probably does not receive govt grants and survives by ticket sales.

@MadTrotter

The closest analogy is the SRS and last time this was discussed they were having issues supporting the program through ticket sales.

And I would say “yes…and…no.” SRS adheres to a program that has probably been around since the end of the Hapsburg empire…staid and formal. I was there in the 1970’s…and I don’t think the show has changed much. In contrast, Cavalia is all energy and spectacle. So while they both present horses in an artistic setting, the “presentation” itself is wildly different.

[MadTrotter]

I guess because Cavalia is a specific performance concept built ground up to be commercially viable. It’s lovely and I enjoy it, but for it to totally supplant competitive dressage would mean the complete buy-in, or collapse, of the people and organizations that comprise international dressage.

It features 70 horses.

Are we ready to give up on the hundreds of thousands of horses, and the local economies they drive?

I just don’t see this happening.

Can we start by making regulations against abuse with teeth and consequences before we wish the entire sport out of existence?

[libgrrl]

Before I had to retire him, I rode my old TB in a musical drill team. He learned the drill pretty quickly (including where to canter, where to line up for the “pinwheel” etc ). I could have just tied up the reins and sat there, and he would have done the whole thing on his own. Routine performances that repeat behaviors in particular places in the ring are completely different from competition that varies in movements and conditions – although they certainly can be beautiful to watch!

[pluvinel]

If someone can do an open jumper course with no bridle, why does a dressage horse need a curb bit…or a bridle at all?

In the 1980’s with Iranian rider Kourosh Airamloo

Passing a jumping course without any bridle, bit & reins!!! | Passing a...

And more recently Brendan Wise
https://www.facebook.com/UnbridledWings/videos/1843826119244440

[libgrrl]

Sigh. That video (Brendan) drives me nuts – not that it isn’t lovely riding – but because so many less informed or non-horse people think that bridles are no longer needed at all (the non-horse folks don’t notice the neck loop and think it is “completely free!”) Brendan definitely trains with a bridle. One can ride on the neck loop too – and it is still very much pressure.

[Bluey]

50+ years ago the Foxcroft girls equestrian team out of California gave exhibitions of several together riding to the wire.
They only had a thin wire around the horse’s neck and would do quadrille movements and jump during those.

We always started colts with a soft rope nose hackamore and to test how responsive horses were to our aids would ride them a bit without tack on their heads, with a baling string around the neck.

The trouble with riding too much without tack is that horses attention would wane and performance would get less exact, so we trained and rode most times with a bridle.

There used to be cutting classes where the rider would pull the bridle and showcase the horse’s ability.

I am still on my phone and don’t have the video, but a top reining trainer bridle broke when he started his run in a big class and they did the rest of the pattern without it, flawlessly.

[RHdobes563]

Rider and fellow reiners react to broken bridle performance at AQHA Sr Reining by Horse of the West (youtube.com)

[poltroon]

@Bluey

50+ years ago the Foxcroft girls equestrian team out of California gave exhibitions of several together riding to the wire.

Foxfield and yes, amazing. They even performed at the 1984 Olympics. And many of the rest of us practiced with a wire at home.

There’s a video going around with a rider doing upper level dressage in a rope halter.

A bridle isn’t a bad thing and not all horses do well bridleless, especially not in scary situations. I’ve had some that take to it and some that don’t. But I do also love it as a goal, and I think my current horse is one that will enjoy it.

I’d like to see judges be thinking more about what makes horses happy and comfortable, rather than simply what is expressive and powerful. And I’d like to see a ruleset that considered both bits and nosebands optional. A bridle creates more clarity of communication but if you don’t think you need one, who am I to say you do?

In the 1980s the Foxfield Drill Team was mostly greys but here is a video of a more recent performance:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm3LGoCpbus

[Aussie_2020]

The first video is very cool, the second is ghastly with the person standing water skiing off the horses’ faces. No thanks.