Cheap ribbons and empty packets – Do events appreciate the clientele?

[LadyB]

http://eventingconnect.today/2015/07/07/cheap-ribbons-and-empty-packets-do-events-appreciate-the-clientele/

In Canada this is very true, the events are very few and far between lately, as we have lost a few venues in the last few years. I’ve noticed the we really are just a bridle number. Courses remain the same at many of the venues, so there really is no cost for course design. One venue in particular actually kept the same course for 3 years.

We pay around $200 for each event in Canada (a little more or a little less depending on the division).

I know whenever this gets brought up there is a lot of scrutiny and many people say we don’t understand how much they have to pay for judges, TD’s and all the fancy stuff. I get it, but think about it, 300 competitors paying $200 a head… $60,000. I know there is money paid out, but you are walking away with a big chunk of money still. It probably wouldn’t be brought up as often if someone actually provided a real breakdown.

If you gave us a breakdown of what generally gets paid, then maybe we would understand it and not raise a flag every few months about how we pay so much to receive so little.

Yes there will be those people who say, its about the event, you should just be happy with getting there and showing. This is true, but eventing has become expensive and there is barely anything to show for it.

What are your thoughts?

[asterix]

You really want more expensive ribbons? Here in the U.S. we have had a breakdown of costs in the USEA magazine. Most events I know do not make any significant money, and I can tell you from personal experience it is an exhausting thing to produce.

[LadyB]

Can you provide the link to this breakdown. This is my point, no one has given us a breakdown in Canada of what an event actually costs. Its people like you who keep saying its expensive, but no one provides this breakdown.

If you have the link that would be great.

[GoForAGallop]

It’s not just the judges and the cost for that one single day. (And you forgot things like the $$$ it costs to have medical staff on hand, the HUGELY expensive insurance you need to actually host an event of that size, etc)

It’s the cost to keep the farm running all year round to keep it ready for those one/two/three/four days a year. It’s the special equipment that needs to be purchased to maintain the courses that wouldn’t have been needed if it were just pasture or hayfield, and to fix the giant tire tracks everywhere when it’s rained and people still need to park their rigs. It’s the $500 worth of gravel to refoot the water jump at the end of every season, it’s the $$ that goes into marketing and printing up materials, the time and energy it takes to maintain jumps that have disintegrated over the winter, etc.

Maybe it’s because I own and maintain my own farm, but I don’t begrudge anyone their event fees. If you think $200 for a day of fun is expensive, I suggest you trot on over to hunter world for some real heart-stopping bills.

That being said…what do you want INSTEAD of the ribbons? Cash prizes is ridiculous, the money is not there to support it, and people who didn’t win first would still want some ribbons. You can’t complain without having some good suggestions.

Personally, I can’t think of anything that is reasonable that would make me feel like I had “something to show for it”, because I am one of those who just enjoys the experience and the photos and training I get from it and frequently loses my ribbon by the time I get home, so clearly we’re looking at the situation from different hilltops.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8219672]
Can you provide the link to this breakdown. This is my point, no one has given us a breakdown in Canada of what an event actually costs. Its people like you who keep saying its expensive, but no one provides this breakdown.

If you have the link that would be great.[/QUOTE]

Google is your friend: http://useventing.com/news/podcast-entry-fee-breakdown-rob-burk-and-sundance-farm-horse-trials-kelly-mahloch

This is a fun read too, an organizer’s guide: http://useventing.com/sites/default/files/usea_event_organizer_guide_opt.pdf Worth looking at to see what farms ACTUALLY need to pay for. (More than just building the fences once and some judges.

[judybigredpony]

We recently attended a Local HT and had wonderful Prizes for every place as well as complimentary water and Snacks on the way out from the a Secretary Booth…all,the scoring was finished timely and everyone who earned one left with their ribbon and dressage test…But I have also attended MORE than one event where the scoring took forever and they encouraged you to leave and give them $$ to send your dressage test n ribbon…an if you didn t place the $$$ for postage weren’t t refunded. I have sat till,every rig left waiting for a 5 th place ribbon …an still couldn’t t pick,it up and left annoyed.
Organizers and the Show Secretary and volunteers work long hard hours hosting Events No One gets rich on! They put up with snafues screw ups competitors with travel problems bad weather accidents etc. Finding sponsors willing to donate even a pencil in this tight economy is very hard…Long gone at the lower levels are the boxes of goodies…I am just happy we still,have venues willing to host events…

[LadyB]

@GoForAGallop;8219674

That being said…what do you want INSTEAD of the ribbons? Cash prizes is ridiculous, the money is not there to support it, and people who didn’t win first would still want some ribbons. You can’t complain without having some good suggestions.

Honestly, just ribbons that are up to date is something I would be more interested in, instead of one that has been sitting in a box from a previous show that’s all wrinkled and missing a middle section.

What happened to seeking sponsors. 10% discount to a tack shop or something along those lines. It doesn’t have to be something huge. What happened to having water bottles at the end of cross country, or even a vet. They used to have vets all the time, but now never do, only on call.

I would say we are of two different mind sets, I also enjoy the training and the experience and my photos, but I never lose a ribbon, as I’ve earned that ribbon and have pride in that ribbon. To me throwing that away or losing it is rude, but its quite common. I love a ribbon.

[Saskatoonian]

Looks to me like organizers are damned if they do, damned if they don’t: Complaints about the cost of eventing coupled with complaints about insufficient loot and services and losing events. As for loot - haha - am I the only one who remembers events where you didn’t even get bridle numbers and wore your pinney for dressage, if you hadn’t kept old bridle numbers and a sharpie to recycle??!

Seriously, there’s never been anything to “show for” the effort you put into eventing. That goes for the organizers I know as well as competitors.

So my thoughts? If eventing’s not fancy enough for someone for whatever reason, leave the organizers alone, and don’t let the swinging door hit you on the way out. And if anyone thinks it costs too much, look at the cost of a dressage show or a h/j show.

[LadyB]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8219675]
Google is your friend: http://useventing.com/news/podcast-entry-fee-breakdown-rob-burk-and-sundance-farm-horse-trials-kelly-mahloch

This is a fun read too, an organizer’s guide: http://useventing.com/sites/default/files/usea_event_organizer_guide_opt.pdf Worth looking at to see what farms ACTUALLY need to pay for. (More than just building the fences once and some judges. ;)[/QUOTE]

Thank you, this is perfect and gives a better idea.

[Sticky_Situation]

I certainly understand the point about the event fees being used not just to pay the judges, but to maintain the courses and property, etc … And I agree that a recognized USEA event is still way cheaper than most recognized shows in H/J land (which don’t require the maintenance of an XC course!)

However, if you read the actual article, it’s not so much that the author doesn’t feel she is getting her money’s worth out of the experience as far as the riding goes (although the question of where all the money is used is mentioned), but that the shows have become somewhat less personal, less of a ‘special occasion’ and more ‘just another competition in a series of competitions’ … In other words, more like the H/J world where the different venues are less of special events to look forward to and more of just another opportunity to earn points.

I can kind of see both sides of this one, especially as a perpetually almost broke amateur with a busy work schedule who can usually only go to maybe one event a month in the summer and fall … I very much appreciate the time, money and effort that it takes to put on an event and maintain an XC course and property, and I think we get a pretty good bargain even though it takes pretty much all my disposable income to do the little bit of competing I do, but at the same time I do kind of miss some of the trivial little things that made the events special, like having the year and division printed on the ribbons or getting sample packs of horse treats with the competitors packet.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8219715]
but at the same time I do kind of miss some of the trivial little things that made the events special, like having the year and division printed on the ribbons or getting sample packs of horse treats with the competitors packet.[/QUOTE]

Have you brought this up to any of your local event organizers?

At least the ones I know, if they heard that a packet of horse treats was seriously all that people needed to feel like they were “getting their money’s worth”, they’d include the damn packet of horse treats. :lol:

[Lady_Eboshi]

Go Hunter Pacing instead! The ribbons are big and fluffy and are given out for things like “oldest horse and rider combination” as well as on time; the XC lasts for up to 2 hours (with no dressage or stadium), and they even serve you LUNCH. With WINE! Entry fees usually $50 to $75 bucks.

[LadyB]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8219720]
Have you brought this up to any of your local event organizers?

At least the ones I know, if they heard that a packet of horse treats was seriously all that people needed to feel like they were “getting their money’s worth”, they’d include the damn packet of horse treats. :lol:[/QUOTE]

But that’s the point, its something THAT simple. You think its funny, but something that easy would really make a difference. Odd yes, but it makes it more personal.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8219725]
But that’s the point, its something THAT simple. You think its funny, but something that easy would really make a difference. Odd yes, but it makes it more personal.[/QUOTE]

I think it’s funny because a packet of horse treats is not going to make or break my good experience at a show venue. But coming from the marketing world, there are different strokes for different folks, I get that.

So, same question to you as to Sticky Situation, have you actually spoken or emailed or smoke signaled some decent, low-cost ideas that would go the “extra mile” to making your experience “worth it” for you? You said something about free water…have you SAID anything, before coming on the board complaining that you don’t get free water anymore?

Event organizers are not mind-readers. Any sensible one will value some consumer feedback that’s reasonable.

[LadyB]

Yes, we are questioned often about our thoughts on events. We have forms we fill out. Does anyone read them not too sure. So please don’t assume we just come on here to bitch. It has been brought up before and the events do know.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8219675]
Google is your friend: http://useventing.com/news/podcast-entry-fee-breakdown-rob-burk-and-sundance-farm-horse-trials-kelly-mahloch

This is a fun read too, an organizer’s guide: http://useventing.com/sites/default/files/usea_event_organizer_guide_opt.pdf Worth looking at to see what farms ACTUALLY need to pay for. (More than just building the fences once and some judges. ;)[/QUOTE]
That pdf is quite chock a block full of information. Really well done and after reading it I thought, if only I had a few million, I’d put on a show (sigh).

There is a little something to be said about costs, even as we can understand that the owner/organizer cannot just give away the show. It seems like Eventing is getting squeezed from at least two pressure points, increasing costs and wallets that cannot handle that cost.

About the last thing we want to say to folks is “Hey, if you can’t handle the cost, go find something else” because frankly, we need more, not less people playing in Eventing land. I know from personal experience that I’ve had to back down from shows due to costs hitting my budget. Less people at shows means less money for organizers which means more chance that those events pull out which is bad for eventing.

Is there a fix? Actually I don;t think there is. It is possible we’re seeing the beginning of the slippery slope pointing down to the end of Eventing as we understand it. I would hope not, but as organizers push back on competitors with a “we don’t make any money so stop complaining” it is hard to see the draw after a time.

I read through Chris’s pod cast, but I have to say, it did not really give a breakdown that the OP was maybe talking about. Yes, the owner has to pay for maintenance et al of a property they already own and yes, 100 jumps might cost $150K initially, but that does not explain the percentage of dollars needed from my $200 avg.

What I’m curious about is knowing how much do organizer pay the USEA officials and judges. Is there a reason that is not known or publicly posted? What is the difference between costs associated with the land as just private property and the costs associated with the operation of the show? Granted that organizers/owners say they don’t make money offering a show, but if they didn’t have a show, they still have costs so how much more do shows impact cost?

So while the two posts were great beginnings, from the paying customer’s perspective, there can still be many questions. I’ll finish by remembering something Denny Emerson talked about in regards to competitors. It was along the likes of being grateful that someone is making the effort to even put on shows so stop complaining and get riding. In that I do agree, but the cautionary thought in return is that I, as a rider don’t need a show to be able to ride. That for $35-$50 I can go to a farm that hosts xc jumps and even make up my own course for the thrill of jumping cross country. The show concentrates the people, elevates the game, but it is not required.

I see this as a symbiotic relationship such that when competitors start to make noise about cost, good organizers/owners might listen and reveal the books so we all really do understand, its really is a non-profit act.

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=GoForAGallop;8219720]
Have you brought this up to any of your local event organizers?

At least the ones I know, if they heard that a packet of horse treats was seriously all that people needed to feel like they were “getting their money’s worth”, they’d include the damn packet of horse treats. :lol:[/QUOTE]

I do feel that I’m getting my money’s worth, and I really do appreciate the time and hard work spent giving us good courses to ride and a smoothly running event. I don’t mean to imply that my enjoyment of an event is dependent on whether they give out horse treats.

And maybe it’s not the events themselves, but the sport of eventing that has changed … Probably if you can compete every weekend, staying for an award ceremony (provided you’re good/lucky enough to win anything!) after your division just seems tiresome, so you’re more than happy to leave some cash for postage to have it sent after the show and hit the road … But I still think having a little informal ceremony would be nice (and would require a little extra time and effort, but no extra money).

[Highflyer]

All of that “stuff”-- contacting sponsors and asking for donations, putting 8 different things in the packets, buying water and ice and stocking coolers at xc, takes time. A surprising amount of time. As someone who is involved in running both recognized and unrecognized “club” HT-- it is very, very hard to get volunteers! We are lucky if we can find enough people to do the stuff that absolutely HAS to be done-- set up rings for dressage, set up sj courses, flag xc, mow, weedeat, jump judge, scribe…

I was secretary for a small unrecognized HT in June. The time I had allotted for stuffing packets ended up being spent putting numbers on the xc course, because otherwise it would have been just the course designer and her fourteen year old kid doing four courses by themselves. Thankfully my dad stepped up and stuffed the packets, so I could go to bed by 10 the night before the event (of course, someone called at 10:30 to ask me to switch their dressage time!)

Three days before the closing date for the event, we had 25 entries. On the closing date we had 50. On the day of the event we had 80. That is why we don’t put the date on the ribbons-- because it is impossible to calculate how many we need enough in advance to order them without paying huge rush order fees!

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=JP60;8219761]

There is a little something to be said about costs, even as we can understand that the owner/organizer cannot just give away the show. It seems like Eventing is getting squeezed from at least two pressure points, increasing costs and wallets that cannot handle that cost.

About the last thing we want to say to folks is “Hey, if you can’t handle the cost, go find something else” because frankly, we need more, not less people playing in Eventing land. I know from personal experience that I’ve had to back down from shows due to costs hitting my budget. Less people at shows means less money for organizers which means more chance that those events pull out which is bad for eventing.

Is there a fix? Actually I don;t think there is. It is possible we’re seeing the beginning of the slippery slope pointing down to the end of Eventing as we understand it. I would hope not, but as organizers push back on competitors with a “we don’t make any money so stop complaining” it is hard to see the draw after a time.[/QUOTE]

I think it’s pretty important to call this out as an issue not just in eventing, but in the horse world in general. Costs continue to rise in most areas, and just like owning a horse is not a right, being able to afford showing is not a right either.

It’s certainly a very painful realization (my budget, and the quality of horse I can afford on that budget keep me at a pretty local level, so I know of what I speak), but it’s hashed out frequently on the threads started by teenagers who are upset they cannot keep up with the rich girls in the barn. It’s an expensive sport at the most basic level (keeping the damn thing fed and shod), and unfortunately, like you, that’s not a trend I see changing.

[LadyB]

[QUOTE=Highflyer;8219770]
All of that “stuff”-- contacting sponsors and asking for donations, putting 8 different things in the packets, buying water and ice and stocking coolers at xc, takes time. A surprising amount of time. As someone who is involved in running both recognized and unrecognized “club” HT-- it is very, very hard to get volunteers! We are lucky if we can find enough people to do the stuff that absolutely HAS to be done-- set up rings for dressage, set up sj courses, flag xc, mow, weedeat, jump judge, scribe…

I was secretary for a small unrecognized HT in June. The time I had allotted for stuffing packets ended up being spent putting numbers on the xc course, because otherwise it would have been just the course designer and her fourteen year old kid doing four courses by themselves. Thankfully my dad stepped up and stuffed the packets, so I could go to bed by 10 the night before the event (of course, someone called at 10:30 to ask me to switch their dressage time!)

Three days before the closing date for the event, we had 25 entries. On the closing date we had 50. On the day of the event we had 80. That is why we don’t put the date on the ribbons-- because it is impossible to calculate how many we need enough in advance to order them without paying huge rush order fees![/QUOTE]

The lack of volunteers seems to be very very common. I was thinking that maybe you make it mandatory as a member with one of the memberships that you have to volunteer at least once. Say if you volunteer and have proof you can get a discount on next years membership.

At every event you hear them asking for jump judges and volunteers, but why not create some oomph for it. In Ontario they do a draw at the end of the day, which is great, but not necessary but a way to get people interested. Before there used to be a woman who would go around and collect funds to raffle off. Again its more work, but make it mandatory that you need to volunteer at least once a year and I bet you wouldn’t have as many volunteer issues.