[QUOTE=Winding Down;8229656]
I just do not like the title of this thread. So there. I said it. :eek:[/QUOTE]
:lol: Wait, after close to two weeks, 11 pages, 200 comments and only now are you registering displeasure at the title?
Talk about a delayed reaction 
Which part? Cheap ribbons, empty packets or the question?
Suggestions?
[QUOTE=frugalannie;8223648]
For those who miss the formal ribbon presentation with victory gallop, I concur. But it’s very difficult to do that when XC is last. The logistics of collecting jump judge’s sheets, having a 30 minute “provisional” period and then calling those who placed back are daunting if not impossible. Not even easy in a one day event that runs in traditional order, but doable for an experienced team.
Just sayin’ “Thank you, FEI.”[/QUOTE]
Local events do not have to run with XC last. It’s the organizers choice to play follow the leader; which is sad & concerning, FEI the leader?..
And you touch on a reason why I find it very hard to believe that XC last encourages attendance. Backwards thinking.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8229656]
I just do not like the title of this thread. So there. I said it. :eek:[/QUOTE]
Me neither.
[QUOTE=JP60;8229681]
Which part? Cheap ribbons, empty packets or the question?
Suggestions?[/QUOTE]
The “clientele” part. Seriously, if you think events are an industry that has a service provider and a clientele then you really don’t know much about eventing beyond your own self interest. Never in 35 years have I gone to an event thinking I’m a “client” of the organizer–more like I’m an invited guest who has made an effort to help cover some of the cost of me being there.
That is a HUGE problem. In this case, the former land owner had been very supportive of both eventing and pony club. I think many people take for granted how much the landowners give by keeping up facilities and letting events run on their farm/land. In this case, a lovely farm with a great xc course was sold to multiple parties…and none really cared about eventing. The owner of the parts with the rings, bought it as a vacation house and just didn’t do up keep of the rings…grass was growing in the sand ring. Without someone who cared to maintain the cost of the jumps and footing…it fell to the club and it just wasn’t cost effective to then run the event there.
Unfortunately not a new problem. Even Gladstone in NJ (head quarters of USEF) had a GREAT xc course…that is now a golf course.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8229761]
I think many people take for granted how much the landowners give by keeping up facilities and letting events run on their farm/land.[/QUOTE]
This.
And this.
From what I understand, the person who owned the property did not buy it as a personal asset; it was bought as an asset to the company/corporation he ran (owned?). During his lifetime, the USEF had use of the property. When he died, the land was not left in trust to the USEF, but was still a corporate asset. The corporation sold it.
I mentioned litter, and I’m pretty damn sure it was competitors (or their friends/family/support staff), because everything I picked up was in the area where all the trailers were parked.
[QUOTE=subk;8229760]
Me neither.
The “clientele” part. Seriously, if you think events are an industry that has a service provider and a clientele then you really don’t know much about eventing beyond your own self interest. Never in 35 years have I gone to an event thinking I’m a “client” of the organizer–more like I’m an invited guest who has made an effort to help cover some of the cost of me being there.[/QUOTE]
So when you are invited and the entries are screwed up, the show is running late, the grounds are either a swamp or hard packed concrete, the officials ignore you…its all good, because your just a guest?
In those 35 years you have never, ever had a bad time at a show? You have never felt even the slightest bit bothered by something?
Perhaps, if we want to look at it as an invitation, if the host starts to throw a bad party, less and less people will be wanting to come and offset the cost. The host gets frustrated, the guests feel let down, and the sport loses another venue. Turn it around, the host sends out invitations, people show, they get nice party gifts, they get made to feel valued, so when they leave they hope they can get invited again.
Either way you present it, the outcome still matters, people/clientele/guests want to come back.
As to this “beyond my self interest”…what is my self interest? I’ll admit I don’t know much about Eventing, having been involved for only 7 years. In those seven years I have volunteered at multiple shows, helped fellow eventers when I could, gave support to fellow riders when they had bad moments, tried to be a sponge in learning how to be a better rider, challenged authority when it seemed like it was not listening to the lower ranks, and generally spent way more money that I should on going to Events, training, horse care, and just plain horsey stuff.
What is my self interest again? Ah, because I try to point out that any organization or organizer or host that wants to be successful needs to work on getting people to come back and sometimes that means focusing on the small things. The largest and greatest self interest I have is keeping my horse healthy and happy so I can go out there, support good venues, and also have fun.
[QUOTE=KayBee;8229853]
I mentioned litter, and I’m pretty damn sure it was competitors (or their friends/family/support staff), because everything I picked up was in the area where all the trailers were parked.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I understand.
It would be great if everyone picked out after themselves…but not everyone does so short of adding fees (impossible to police), increasing entry costs to cover clean up, it would just be an understood, added line item to the long list of things organizers need to consider. Again, guests, clients, customers, the point is there are hundreds of people grouping in a smallish area and as much as we’d like to think all Eventers are compassionate, caring citizens of the world, some may forget to pick up after themselves. Rather than get angry we can try and find solutions.
One could put a thoughtful sign next to a table of water bottles for competitors:
If you appreciate this water, then we appreciate you tossing the empties in a waste bin for if we have to pick up too many, you won’t be able to appreciate them next year.
There is a line between scolding and prompting and a creative writer may find the right balance.
A couple of years ago I volunteered two days for a recognized event. It’s about an 8-hour round trip from home. I was at my assigned duty station at least 20 minutes early, let the coordinator know I was willing to stay beyond my shift if she needed extra help, did my job efficiently and effectively (and couldn’t have bothered anyone since it wasn’t a job that really required any interaction), and was pleasant and polite. Last year I was unable to volunteer and sent a reply email to the call for volunteers to explain that I really enjoyed volunteering the year before, would not be able to this time, but planned to volunteer again the next year.
So the two volunteer coordinators email their call for volunteers…please, please help, anything you can do…I happily replied that I would gladly volunteer doing anything at all…even happy to dump trash cans. A week, two weeks, three weeks go by…no reply. I resend to the main coordinator along with a cc to the other coordinator who replies that the main coordinator should be in touch soon but doesn’t answer my request for an alternate method of contact in case my email didn’t go through.
Never got a a reply. I was willing to travel 8 hours, arrange lodging, pay for a farmsitter for my animals at home, and give up a day or two to support a sport whose participants I have come to admire and enjoy. It kind of bothered me that someone couldn’t even take the time (after begging for volunteers) to send a quick email that at least said, “Thanks for offering to volunteer. Fortunately we have filled our volunteer positions, but we thank you for being willing to assist.” Nope. Nothing. That really turned me off.
[QUOTE=JP60;8229899]
So when you are invited and the entries are screwed up, the show is running late, the grounds are either a swamp or hard packed concrete, the officials ignore you…its all good, because your just a guest?
In those 35 years you have never, ever had a bad time at a show? You have never felt even the slightest bit bothered by something?[/QUOTE]
Of course I have. The difference is how you respond to those annoyances and who you respond to. If you do so like you are entitled because of your measly $450 check then you are screwing it up for the rest of us.
In my lifetime, I have competed at more events that no longer exist than many of you have ever even competed. Very, very simply: eventers need organizers and events WAY more than organizers need eventers. Eventually most organizers quit because they are burned out and feel they can no long reasonably meet the demands of competitors and/or they can no longer manage the expense of it.
Anything events/organizers are making in the way of profit probably wouldn’t actually be profit in a real business model. Any compensation for their time is likely somewhere below minimum wage. In fact the whole financial model is entirely reliant on many people other than the rider making a personal contribution in time, effort, funds and/or talents. If you as a rider had to actually pay an entry fee that was a reflection of the actual cost of an event with no volunteer labor it would be too cost prohibitive for the vast majority of us to compete.
So yeah, I try to remember I’m a guest who is reliant on the largess of a bunch of people who don’t even know me. If I have problems I try to work them out with USEA officials. I don’t complain to organizers about things that are either the responsibility of the governing body (whom I’m happy to tangle with) or beyond their control, such as weather and footing. If I can, I suck it up and keep my mouth shut. That is not to say organizers don’t want feed back, they do. When I provide that I always try to offer solutions to my problems as well as find things to compliment them that I thought went well.
Oh, and I also try to say “Thank you” to all the volunteers I encounter and I often make an effort to go by the office and tell them the same before I leave. I’ve been known to write thank you notes–something my trainer when I was a teenager required of all her students!
Yes, you are a guest. If you are on private land doubly so. Being a guest doesn’t mean you don’t work out problems, but it does mean you do so with deference and without a sense of entitlement.
Perfectly stated and I agree 150% with the rest of this post!
… and I also agree with those lamenting the title of this thread. Whenever the word “cheap” gets thrown around, it is almost always accompanied some sort of sense of entitlement for what their entry fees “buy”.
Where is all this anger coming from?
I’m struggling to see where entitlement has entered this conversation. I’m struggling to see where any negativity has ever really entered this conversation since what the general focus has been, can anything be done to improve the experience going to a horse trial.
In my lifetime, I have competed at more events that no longer exist than many of you have ever even competed. Very, very simply: eventers need organizers and events WAY more than organizers need eventers. Eventually most organizers quit because they are burned out and feel they can no long reasonably meet the demands of competitors and/or they can no longer manage the expense of it.
So you’ve been around. Got it. From that experience we then understand that organizers quit because of the demands of eventers, as one point, and the cost as another.
So then the sport dies. Is that the conclusion? What demands of competitors are burning out organizers? Help me to understand why Organizers specifically are dropping out of this sport. If it is the cost of ribbons that I’d say get rid of giving prizes. If it is the demand for fancy jumps then stop giving us fancy jumps. What are we demanding and I bet many of us will stop.
As I’ve said, it is a symbiotic relationship, almost a partnership, but bear in mind that as riders, we have many options for jumping, even if it is logs in a field whilst the organizer does need actual teams to show up for a show. Riders can take their dollars where ever they feel they get the best experience for the dollar so while the idea of being an invited guest is nice, we all have choice.
The sentence I emphasized, do you see how pretentious that sounds? How dismissive that comes across? Because you’ve experienced more in 35 then some have in less their viewpoint does not matter?
[QUOTE=SevenDogs;8230005]
Perfectly stated and I agree 150% with the rest of this post!
… and I also agree with those lamenting the title of this thread. Whenever the word “cheap” gets thrown around, it is almost always accompanied some sort of sense of entitlement for what their entry fees “buy”.[/QUOTE]
If I understand this, the word cheap accompanies the word entitlement. So if an organizer builds cheap jumps, as a competitor I need to not say anything since it makes it seems like I am entitled to good jumps. If an organizer supplies low cost judges with poor capabilities I should be grateful for the fact there are even judges there, not commenting on the quality of judging presented.
At what level can we acknowledge cheap? No ribbons? some stripe of synthetic with colored dyed in it?
You are right, I am buying something with my entry fee, but it would seem that after making the purchase I have no recourse to measure the value of my “buy”. Is that what you are saying? How does entitlement factor into measuring quality?
Yowser, you created a lot of questions with that thought and as one who hopes to some day host a show, I’d love to learn these viewpoints.
You are entitled to safe, approved courses and footing, approved judges, and whatever else is promised in the event description in the Omnibus. (Probably 6-8 ribbons per division and a prize for the division winner). Anything else is “gravy”: a water bottle at the end of xc, a Cosequin bucket, a ribbon bigger than your horse’s head that also has the date spelled out in Roman numerals on it.
I’ve honestly never been to a recognized event that didn’t at least provide the basic appropriate fences and adequate footing (barring last minute crazy weather). If you have, you should absolutely report the event to USEA. I’ve also never been to a recognized event (or even an unrecognized event) that didn’t provide ribbons that had been purchased from a major ribbon company and had the the name of the venue on them. It’s very cost prohibitive to order ribbons at the last minute-- that blog post did not take into account the added cost of having them a rush order which would be necessary if you waited to know how many divisions you would need-- and many events order them in bulk when Hodges has its sale over the winter. It just doesn’t make economic or even ecological sense to have the year/ division printed on the ribbons.
I would like to see the smaller recognized events stay in business (and in this area there are plenty that don’t get 150 or even 100 entries and probably don’t break even). So I go to them when I can, even when I know that I might be doing dressage/ showjumping in a hilly grass field and jumping cross country through turnout fields over fences that are not handcarved to look like animals. I am grateful to the people who put them on year after year despite diminishing returns since they are only running BN-T and are stuck with a date between two major local events that run BN-I, when all the big guys are out of town trying to qualify for their three days. And to be honest, if I were to win, I would be thrilled to bits to get a ribbon even if it were a tiny single streamer (which is not something I have seen, ever, at any event in this area.)
JP60 I wonder if you are not understanding what we are saying or if you are just trying to get more and more information.
You noted your experience with organizing a regatta - my x-dh was a Laser sailor. I backed him when he organized a regatta in CA and was “shore crew” at multiple frost bite series.
Big difference between the 2 competitions in preparation - for a regatta you need a body of water deep and large enough to set up the 3 legs of the races. Then 3 markers for the course with at 3 markers for backup. A couple of boat owners willing to donate their boats for the race committee, and maybe be a member of the race committee. Then notify the Coast Guard and locals you plan to race in a specific area for x number of hours a day and you are mostly ready to go. The rest of the time can be spent getting a scorer then setting up for the evening festivities.
No land to purchase/rent, maintain, pay taxes. No dressage arenas to maintain, no dressage (with extra boards) or letters (with extras) with decorations. No SJ arena to maintain with a variety of well made standards, rails, gates, ramps, etc - all painted again with extras. Do not forget the jump cups pins plus the safety cups necessary for the back rail of all spreads. Then numbers/letters, red/white flags (a flag for every standard) and decorations.
No XC courses to maintain, normally BN through Prel, each fence is 200-1000 depending on the design. Those banks, ditches and water fences that can withstand multiple rides are not cheap. Spare equipment and the crew to do fence repair/replacement during the competition. Again red/white flags, numbers/letters plus spares.
I have yet noted the people who will drag, mow, weed eat, aerate, put down gravel, re-level water fences, secure sides of ditches/banks, paint fences, etc, etc, etc.
Also I have not yet mentioned the secretary(s), volunteers who are responsible for requesting additional volunteers, order shavings, temporary stabling (if needed), port-a-pots, food & other vendors, creating & printing the programs -often delayed because people enter at or after closing date then want to re-arrange their schedule or change horses so many organizers don’t print until Friday. Reams of paper so the secretary(s) can print out multiple orders of go for each test for all of the volunteers.
Much more is necessary to prepare for and put on an event - this list just scratches the surface.
IMO it takes a special type of crazy to be a repeat organizer. I have a great deal of admiration and respect for organizers. Even the ones who never get it just right. At least they are out there trying. It is much harder than it looks from the competitor side. That is why so many of us encourage others to volunteer.
“WE Eventers” have lost too many events because the organizers burned out, aged out, land access was lost, stricter XC course design/construction requirements, again etc, etc. I remember when Area III had at most 6 Spring events, no summer and about 5 Fall events. Smaller and fewer events so we had a chance to know each other and actually spend time with the organizer, secretary and officials. Back then a large event was 150 entries. Now 300 entries is not unusual.
Again eventing is different today. Now competitors have the opportunity to compete almost year round. Once competitors were limited to 2 at most 4 total horses per competition, now some ride 5-10 horses. We have gone from a largely amateur sport to a professional based sport. So we have more pro riders riding horses owned by another, owned by syndicates or owned by their students. From their perspective it is a business and many look at the organizer to make everything “just right” so they (the pro) can show their owners what a great job is being done with the horse.
As with anything positive (improved footing/courses) there is the equal negative (increased costs/events closing).
[QUOTE=fooler;8230202]
JP60 I wonder if you are not understanding what we are saying or if you are just trying to get more and more information.
You noted your experience with organizing a regatta - my x-dh was a Laser sailor. I backed him when he organized a regatta in CA and was “shore crew” at multiple frost bite series.
Big difference between the 2 competitions in preparation - for a regatta you need a body of water deep and large enough to set up the 3 legs of the races. Then 3 markers for the course with at 3 markers for backup. A couple of boat owners willing to donate their boats for the race committee, and maybe be a member of the race committee. Then notify the Coast Guard and locals you plan to race in a specific area for x number of hours a day and you are mostly ready to go. The rest of the time can be spent getting a scorer then setting up for the evening festivities.
No land to purchase/rent, maintain, pay taxes. No dressage arenas to maintain, no dressage (with extra boards) or letters (with extras) with decorations. No SJ arena to maintain with a variety of well made standards, rails, gates, ramps, etc - all painted again with extras. Do not forget the jump cups pins plus the safety cups necessary for the back rail of all spreads. Then numbers/letters, red/white flags (a flag for every standard) and decorations.
No XC courses to maintain, normally BN through Prel, each fence is 200-1000 depending on the design. Those banks, ditches and water fences that can withstand multiple rides are not cheap. Spare equipment and the crew to do fence repair/replacement during the competition. Again red/white flags, numbers/letters plus spares.
I have yet noted the people who will drag, mow, weed eat, aerate, put down gravel, re-level water fences, secure sides of ditches/banks, paint fences, etc, etc, etc.
Also I have not yet mentioned the secretary(s), volunteers who are responsible for requesting additional volunteers, order shavings, temporary stabling (if needed), port-a-pots, food & other vendors, creating & printing the programs -often delayed because people enter at or after closing date then want to re-arrange their schedule or change horses so many organizers don’t print until Friday. Reams of paper so the secretary(s) can print out multiple orders of go for each test for all of the volunteers.
Much more is necessary to prepare for and put on an event - this list just scratches the surface.
IMO it takes a special type of crazy to be a repeat organizer. I have a great deal of admiration and respect for organizers. Even the ones who never get it just right. At least they are out there trying. It is much harder than it looks from the competitor side. That is why so many of us encourage others to volunteer.
“WE Eventers” have lost too many events because the organizers burned out, aged out, land access was lost, stricter XC course design/construction requirements, again etc, etc. I remember when Area III had at most 6 Spring events, no summer and about 5 Fall events. Smaller and fewer events so we had a chance to know each other and actually spend time with the organizer, secretary and officials. Back then a large event was 150 entries. Now 300 entries is not unusual.
Again eventing is different today. Now competitors have the opportunity to compete almost year round. Once competitors were limited to 2 at most 4 total horses per competition, now some ride 5-10 horses. We have gone from a largely amateur sport to a professional based sport. So we have more pro riders riding horses owned by another, owned by syndicates or owned by their students. From their perspective it is a business and many look at the organizer to make everything “just right” so they (the pro) can show their owners what a great job is being done with the horse.
As with anything positive (improved footing/courses) there is the equal negative (increased costs/events closing).[/QUOTE]
You are correct. They are different.
I was not trying to make a one for one comparison. I only stated my experience to say that I understand the impact and effort in trying to put on any event. It. Is. Not. Easy.
Can we all just agree on that? Putting on an event is not easy. What I did understand was that if I did not put on the best event possible then the next year, turn out may be less. I witnessed that first hand and I busted my ass to make sure all those non-entitled competitors had little to complain about, that they left happy and wanting to come back.
Is there something wrong in wanting to make people have a great experience and go home feeling good? Otherwise, why are we talking about this at all. I would think that the first reason why someone would want to put on a show would be to ensure that people left wanting to come back. Otherwise, why do it?
The topic of this whole thread was about a simple thought, ribbons and empty packets and it has morphed into great conversations about volunteers, overworked organizers, and personal experiences, but the original topic was about the small things.
A simple question, do small things matter? Does attention to detail matter?
For me, small things do matter. Attention to detail does matter.
[QUOTE=JP60;8230149]
At what level can we acknowledge cheap? No ribbons? some stripe of synthetic with colored dyed in it?[/QUOTE]
At no level does a competitor get to whine about ribbons being cheap and still have people respect them in the morning.
[QUOTE=JP60;8230149]
If I understand this, the word cheap accompanies the word entitlement. So if an organizer builds cheap jumps, as a competitor I need to not say anything since it makes it seems like I am entitled to good jumps. If an organizer supplies low cost judges with poor capabilities I should be grateful for the fact there are even judges there, not commenting on the quality of judging presented.
At what level can we acknowledge cheap? No ribbons? some stripe of synthetic with colored dyed in it?
You are right, I am buying something with my entry fee, but it would seem that after making the purchase I have no recourse to measure the value of my “buy”. Is that what you are saying? How does entitlement factor into measuring quality?
Yowser, you created a lot of questions with that thought and as one who hopes to some day host a show, I’d love to learn these viewpoints.[/QUOTE]
With all due respect, I think the above is a pretty textbook example of a straw man argument.
Fences that are unsuitable/unsafe/not up to level (which is what I am inferring by the use of the word “cheap”, rather than that they were inexpensive to build?) and unqualified, incompetent judges are fundamental problems at an event. Base requirements would not have been met.
Earning a ribbon with an 18" streamer instead of a 14" streamer, or getting a goodie bag with your information packet are not fundamentals. They’re not even the icing on the cake. They’re more like the chocolate sprinkles on the chocolate on the cherry on the icing on the cake.
The event has demonstrated its “appreciation” for its “clientele” by doggedly working to provide safe, well-designed, thoughtful courses appropriate to the level over well-tended footing with properly accredited officials, and ample resources such as parking, port-a-potties (with TP!), and a food truck if we’re lucky.
Congrats to any event that manages to get all of the fundamentals, and all of the ‘nice to haves’ squared away in sufficient time and with enough excess budget and energy that they can deal with these little extras.
I suppose I am just surprised to hear that people can culminate all of their hard work and training with their horse at a safe, well-executed event and be dismayed because they didn’t receive a free bottle of water after XC or horse treats with their show program. Really?
Perhaps I’m having some sort of gap in understanding here. My context is that I live in an area with roughly ten venues within a 2.5 hour radius that host at least one recognized event annually where you could run up to T, if not P or I. We’ve also lost at least six of the same over the past several years. Many of these events fill two full days’ worth of competitors, with a waiting list. They’re all relatively well run, many fabulously so, and there is no shortage of available substitutes, in the form of CTs, unrecognized shows, fox hunting etc. That is to say that unhappy competitors have lots of options to vote with their feet.
Goodie bags and freebies are not the norm here, though one or two venues focus heavily on prizes. While comments and suggestions are generally well-received and considered, I can think of a few venues where competitors might find themselves inexplicably on the waitlist in the future were they to complain of feeling inadequately special at a host’s well-run event. To echo Subk’s point - the organizers need the competitors far less than the competitors need the organizers. 
[QUOTE=subk;8230349]
At no level does a competitor get to whine about ribbons being cheap and still have people respect them in the morning.[/QUOTE]
or receiving an “empty” packet…
or not feeling appreciated…
One needs to shadow organizers two years, one year, six months, three months, 1 month, and 1 week ahead of time to realize how secretaries and organizers struggle to meet the needs of competitors. Try being a secretary for one event, and then report back. Seriously. The title of this thread just pushes me over the edge, as I have worked with these folks and seen how they are treated, and how hard they work. And many are volunteers…
I keep seeing the title of this thread pop up and it is just so wrong…
WD:
As in so many things, it IS wrong that competitors bring an attitude that spawns the title of this thread. It IS, however, reality as you know.
Organizers, volunteers and friends know this going in and that’s yet another reason why we appreciate them, right? All those “Thank you’s” and “How can I help’s” do push the rude, ungrateful folks into the background.
THANK YOU ORGANIZERS, VOLUNTEERS and FRIENDS!!!
[QUOTE=JP60;8230338]
A simple question, do small things matter? Does attention to detail matter?
For me, small things do matter. Attention to detail does matter.[/QUOTE]
I think you answered my question I asked earlier (that you never answered - if you did not get it or if you were being snarky). Clearly you do not get it. I do not know how much more clearly people can explain it to you, but you do not get it.
If you want the events you attend to have things that you think they should have but they do not have you need to step up to the plate and personally make it happen.
No, just not tell the organizer you know how to freaking change their ribbon order for them.
You, the person who thinks it matters that much, needs to find someone to donate the funds for those longer extra special but very needed ribbons, then you who thinks it matters that much needs to organize those funds getting to the organizers so they can update their ribbon order.
Then you, the person who thinks it matters that much, needs to take care of whatever was promised to said group that made the donation, like getting their name in the flier or their name announced when the ribbons come out.
Then you, that person who thinks it matters that much, can go on the search for goodies to go in the packets. Remember, there have to be lots of them. Because the people that think these things matter that much also think it is not fair if Dobbin got horse treats in their packet but Stardust only got saddle soap. So find your donations, collect your donations, coordinate with the organizer when you can be available to stuff your found donations into the envelopes. Then you, that person who thinks it matters that much, can be happy when you receive your packet and your ribbon.
Right now the rest of the people putting on the event are busy with the things that really do matter.
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