[QUOTE=Winding Down;8229656]
I just do not like the title of this thread. So there. I said it. :eek:[/QUOTE]
It’s just a copy and paste from Eventing Connections article. Please don’t think I wrote it. 
In any group of people, there’s a diversity of perception and opinion based on that perception. This thread has been valuable in allowing posters to articulate different perspectives on what influences their perception of an event. Congratulations on maintaining civility!
For the record, I know of no event where the organizer, organizing committee, or any volunteer has the mindset of providing a crummy experience for the competitor. They all want to provide the best experience possible given the facts on the ground. Thus, their priorities might not be those of a particular competitor when it comes to anything beyond “safe venue and competent officials within the defined guidelines”.
[QUOTE=JP60;8229909]
Okay, I understand.
It would be great if everyone picked out after themselves…but not everyone does so short of adding fees (impossible to police), increasing entry costs to cover clean up, it would just be an understood, added line item to the long list of things organizers need to consider. Again, guests, clients, customers, the point is there are hundreds of people grouping in a smallish area and as much as we’d like to think all Eventers are compassionate, caring citizens of the world, some may forget to pick up after themselves. Rather than get angry we can try and find solutions.
One could put a thoughtful sign next to a table of water bottles for competitors:
If you appreciate this water, then we appreciate you tossing the empties in a waste bin for if we have to pick up too many, you won’t be able to appreciate them next year.
There is a line between scolding and prompting and a creative writer may find the right balance.[/QUOTE]
What? I am not an event organizer. I am a competitor expressing my disappointment/disgust at a specific example on a forum. Are we really at the stage where we have to mommy folks and tell them something that should be common sense, not to mention not common courtesy?
Let’s also not generalize from “I had a bad experience as a volunteer” to “therefore all volunteers are treated badly.” Or “show A didn’t do X” therefore “all shows are failing the community.”
[QUOTE=frugalannie;8230565]
For the record, I know of no event where the organizer, organizing committee, or any volunteer has the mindset of providing a crummy experience for the competitor. They all want to provide the best experience possible given the facts on the ground. Thus, their priorities might not be those of a particular competitor when it comes to anything beyond “safe venue and competent officials within the defined guidelines”.[/QUOTE]
Yes. Although I’d include well organized and run in a timely fashion. IMO, anything beyond this is gravy.
I’ll be sure to make a cute sign by the gate post one truck driver smashed at our last event…“if you knock down this post , get out and look at your truck for damage, then fail to fess up, well…this is why we can’t have nice things.”
I’m sure the sign will Change Everything.
Well I just sat here and read all 13 pages. I read the article the OP is asking for input on. I just got into eventing a few years ago, so I was never around for the “good old days” when everything was a 3 day complete with competitor parties and lots of goodies, so for me there’s nothing to miss.
This thread does, however, make me really appreciate Area 1. Despite New England being a geographical region that is ever shrinking and losing land to human sprawl, there are still many events to choose from. I’m very grateful to be able to ride at so many beautiful places. The organizers work their butts off to put on a nice show, and I have yet to feel like just another bridle number. I think it was Groton House a few weeks ago who very quickly reworked their entire running order mid-show to get everyone’s XC ride in before some very violent storms where predicted to come through the area. They really go the extra mile around here.
Our schooling shows do still offer very nice goodies for the 1/2/3 finishers in each division. I won’t lie and say it’s not fun to go home with a bag of horse cookies or a nice bag from the local tack shop, but I certainly do not go there expecting it. My first ribbon was a pink 5th place one and still sits in a prominent location in my house. I write the date and my dressage score on the back of each one and enjoy the pride of winning every single one. I understand where the article is coming from. Everyone likes remember the good old days. There’s nothing wrong with that as long as you don’t live life hung up on how things used to be.
Ok, as I said earlier on in this thread, I do kind of miss the customized ribbons I used to see more commonly 10-15 years ago, although I’m very happy to win any ribbon at all.
That does NOT mean that I am rude and ungrateful in my dealing with event organizers and volunteers, or that I pitch a fit if the ride times get behind schedule, complain about the entry costs having gone up over the years, don’t appreciate all the time and effort that goes into organizing an event, or leave litter behind me, or damage property without owning up to it.
I agree, the title isn’t worded very well, and what the ribbons look like probably isn’t even in my top 50 priorities in deciding whether or not I will go to a certain event. But the fact that someone notices and appreciates the ‘icing on the cake’ doesn’t automatically mean they are ungrateful.
I donate to public radio. Some of my co-workers always comment that “that’s an expensive cd/tote/coffee mug.” Although I don’t claim the gratuity, I’d imagine if I came to work with a public radio tote or coffee mug, someone would probably say that it was a pretty chintzy tote or mug for the price I paid.
This discussion reminded me of that.
That is all.
<—continuing streak of non-substantive comments
First off, I don’t know your status in writing your comments. Some here are both and the context was not clear. As we’ve been talking about events, I picked up on your thought and put out a suggestion as a general idea, “One could put out”.
I completely agree that common sense is to toss trash in a bin. Okay?, I agree, yet explain all the trash on the side of the road. Explain signs that state X fine for littering on the side of roads or public areas. Not everyone works off of common sense and a polite reminder does little harm, but maybe helps. I look at it as similar to some leash warnings I see at shows. Common sense says to keep a dog on a leash yet I see posted signs reminding me of that with the additional point that it could cost me money.
At the end of the day, as an organizer I am hoping that folks came, enjoyed, and left feeling that it was a good experience. As a competitor, at the end of the day I am hoping that I end the weekend feeling good about the experience. Win Win.
If we start to get Lose Win, then we see venues drop away and that is not good for the sport.
If we start to get Win Lose, then we still see venues drop away and that is not good for the sport.
Lose Lose is obvious.
Whatever it takes to keep a win win balance can be debated till the cows come home, but my thought is that we all want that result.
More costs…
[QUOTE=JP60;8220261]
KayBee, Thank you.
So to answer my own question from before, according to USEA, your average entry fee breaks down like this:
[TABLE=“width: 310”]
[TR]
[TD]Category[/TD]
[TD]USEA Est[/TD]
[TD]Pct[/TD]
[TD]Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Officials[/TD]
[TD] $ 7,385.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]20%[/TD]
[TD] $ 48.12[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Staff[/TD]
[TD] $ 11,350.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]31%[/TD]
[TD] $ 73.96[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Safety[/TD]
[TD] $ 2,000.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]6%[/TD]
[TD] $ 13.03[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]XC Course[/TD]
[TD] $ 4,350.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]12%[/TD]
[TD] $ 28.34[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Show Jump[/TD]
[TD] $ 600.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]2%[/TD]
[TD] $ 3.91[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hospitality[/TD]
[TD] $ 3,980.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]11%[/TD]
[TD] $ 25.93[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Volunteers[/TD]
[TD] $ 3,100.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]9%[/TD]
[TD] $ 20.20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Prizes[/TD]
[TD] $ 700.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]2%[/TD]
[TD] $ 4.56[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Administration[/TD]
[TD] $ 1,750.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]5%[/TD]
[TD] $ 1.40[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Advertizing[/TD]
[TD] $ 850.00[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]2%[/TD]
[TD] $ 5.54[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Totals[/TD]
[TD] $ 36,065.00[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] $ 235.00[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Break Even:[/TD]
[TD=“align: right”]153 Entries[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Now I could have issues with some of these numbers for are they amortized over time? Volunteers cost $3100? but what really surprised me was the $11,350.00 for staff. What?? What staff and why is that almost double the price tag for officials? $2000 for safety, but what if there are volunteer rescue squads, does that change?
So it is better, but almost more questions in one way.
In reading AJ’s article/commentary this last paragraph caught my mind:
Again, culled from reading posts from a collection of threads, many (some) folks are starting to see low level eventing (S-T) as less a competition and more the training/schooling ground for the next string of horses being moved up the levels. Sure, on a bad day I might beat Mike Plumb in Novice, but his reason for being there and mine are years apart. He gets first on some owner’s horse and its noted in the register for extra dollars down the road. I get first and the sight of that blue is golden.
I love tokens, I don’t mind the water bottles after xc, but I guess I get piqued a tiny bit when I think that Professionals treat the shows as means to an end that is far far away while I’m their sweating it out on the cross country walk and hoping to complete. The small things then really do matter.[/QUOTE]
Add in USEA/USEF admin/drugs & medication/dressage ride fees, which are included in the competitors fees and can look like income to the event, but in reality are simply passed back to the governing bodies in the form of a couple thousand dollars, per show.
IMO staff includes any paid person which wouldn’t fit under the officials title (judges, stewards, TD) and therefore includes announcers, vet, medical staff, any position that wasn’t filled (or couldn’t be filled) with a volunteers such as scoring, office staff, etc. This adds up over a multi-day show, especially when you are providing hospitality/lodging for these individuals. Many volunteer EMT’s or other safety personnel still need to rent vehicles and equipment for the weekend, and sometimes insurance.
Originally Posted by JP60
but what really surprised me was the $11,350.00 for staff. What?? What staff and why is that almost double the price tag for officials?
I would imagine some of that is the cost of the course builder etc, moving, staking, unstaking, flagging, unflagging, etc the jumps, This would be in addition to the $4350 for the cross country course, which looks low to me.
$2000 for safety, but what if there are volunteer rescue squads, does that change?
While the volunteer STAFF are not paid, the volunteer SQUAD often charges a fee, and always expect a significant donation. You also need the horse ambulance, etc.
[QUOTE=Highflyer;8230194]
It’s very cost prohibitive to order ribbons at the last minute-- that blog post did not take into account the added cost of having them a rush order which would be necessary if you waited to know how many divisions you would need-- and many events order them in bulk when Hodges has its sale over the winter. It just doesn’t make economic or even ecological sense to have the year/ division printed on the ribbons.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for noting that, I think that’s an excellent example of a cost many don’t really think about. At several schooling venues (like I’d ever win a ribbon at a recognized venue, ROFL), I actually give back the ribbons unless it’s something particularly special (& no, it’s not b/c I have a ton of ribbons,ha). If I have a blue ribbon from a division, especially dressage or a CT, in which I am the only entry, I’d rather the organizer keep the ribbon so she doesn’t have to spend the money again. All I want is my dressage test to learn from the comments, my photos, & for her to keep sharing her fab property!
NOT saying no one should keep ribbons, LOL, before COTH runs off with that one, just wanted to highlight that for future readers.
Staff can also include groundskeepers or facilities managers - at our events our facilities manager is on hand to tow people out of a muddy parking field with the tractor, head out on course in a 4 wheeler to repair a fence, jump dead batteries, water the rings at course breaks, oh and serve as safety officer.
We have a professional who does control and xc announcing. This can be an important safety and logistics role. He comes the day before to set up all the PA equipment and supplies all the jump judges with radios, along with the pa for SJ.
[QUOTE=asterix;8235984]
We have a professional who does control and xc announcing. This can be an important safety and logistics role. He comes the day before to set up all the PA equipment and supplies all the jump judges with radios, along with the pa for SJ.[/QUOTE]
I experienced this first-hand when jump judging and there was a fall. Also, it was clear that the announcer was not only responding to the jump judges, but also anticipating them. I saw a horse slip (not majorly, but slip nonetheless), coming in to one of my fences. I called it in, and from his vantage point (he could see a lot of the fences) he said “saw that; will get the grounds crew to you.”
When things are going smoothly and weather conditions/footing are optimal, it probably seems like anyone could do announcing/control. But when the elements don’t cooperate… things can get tricky.
Curious. Do they ever split “announcer” and “control”?
In ontario our Announcer and Control is the same person. She is at every event and is wonderful!
[QUOTE=KayBee;8236013]
Curious. Do they ever split “announcer” and “control”?[/QUOTE]
Yes. At the bigger events they tend to be 2 separate jobs. I know they are at Rolex as well as many of the events held through the year at KY Horse Park. A friend of mine runs control but does not announce (well in a pinch she will) at events and manages to stay pretty busy through out the year.
It would be interesting to see a day rate breakdown for staff. Assuming that the event is three days, that’s about $3500 per day, or at a day rate of $350, 30 full days spread out over time any way one chooses. Sounds pretty high to me. An hourly rate of $25 is only $200 per day. $50 per hour is $400 per day. For full time employees, you have to add extra taxes and such, but many event staff are considered independent contractors so employer taxes are not applicable.
Seems to me the major cost would be facility rental, and that’s not even on the list.
It also presumably includes expenses, and if plane tickets/ hotels (especially for multi-day events) are involved that adds up very quickly.
Staff and officials are different. Whether or not staff are entitled to transportation, food and lodging would be up to the contract between the event and staff. The FEI sets payment standards for its officials, including per diem.
It all depends on what are considered staff. For instance would the CD be considered an official or staff? TDs are definitely officials.
[QUOTE=Highflyer;8236837]
It also presumably includes expenses, and if plane tickets/ hotels (especially for multi-day events) are involved that adds up very quickly.[/QUOTE]
Travel/accommodations are generally part of the deal. It’s possible to pull from local resources, but not all venues may be lucky to have a local talent pool. And in terms of dressage judges (and possibly TD?), it presumes they don’t also train/teach in the area (dressage judges can’t judge their former students within 1 month? 3 months? of the student’s last lesson. I think, however, you can’t judge a student no matter the frequency of the lessons if the relationship is ongoing). You also can’t judge your family members. In dressage, anyway 
Venue pricing is going to depend on whether the event is hosted by the locale (eg, Flora Lea in NJ), the land is “donated” for the duration of the event (eg, Millbrook in NY) or is a Horse Park (eg GMHA or Kentucky HP), in which case there’s going to be some sort of fee.
The entry fee average is a bit high, and therefore I think the overall costs, too, because it includes destination events, and possibly, FEI events such as Galway and Rolex. Certainly the entry fee was above what the average is for Area 2 events that don’t host the upper USEA levels, and even some that do.
I haven’t read more than the first page, so I don’t know if other Ontario competitors have chimed in, but I could not disagree with you more. I’ve been to three events this year, won all three with one horse and placed with various others. ALL THREE had the event and date printed on big, beautiful ribbons, and nice prizes. Bronte Creek gave away AMAZING prizes, right down to, I think, 6th place! I saw halters, embroidered coolers, and I had to carry my 1st place prizes home in a bucket! For first I got: $125 gift card to tack shop, $50 off Hit Air, trophy/vase with event name/date printed on, and cleaning carpet spray. I was blown away! They did ribbons right down to 10th, which I thought was very generous of them. The other events had great prizes too. I really have no idea what the problem is with Ontario events! There is maybe the occasional event with small ribbons and no prizes, but you aren’t owed anything. Appreciate what you get.
As for losing venues, the Omnibus is actually busier this year than last. There are two new venues this year. Again, I don’t know where this info is coming from.
Courses being the same is definitely something I wholeheartedly agree with and have taken a stand on. A few years ago, UL riders/coaches got together and put forth our displeasure to some of the venues. Mild changes occurred, but nothing much. This is significantly more of an issue than “empty” packets (which are designed for INFORMATION, not goodies…!!) and “cheap” ribbons. The whining about these two things is really just ridiculous.
[QUOTE=LadyB;8219648]
http://eventingconnect.today/2015/07/07/cheap-ribbons-and-empty-packets-do-events-appreciate-the-clientele/
In Canada this is very true, the events are very few and far between lately, as we have lost a few venues in the last few years. I’ve noticed the we really are just a bridle number. Courses remain the same at many of the venues, so there really is no cost for course design. One venue in particular actually kept the same course for 3 years.
We pay around $200 for each event in Canada (a little more or a little less depending on the division).
I know whenever this gets brought up there is a lot of scrutiny and many people say we don’t understand how much they have to pay for judges, TD’s and all the fancy stuff. I get it, but think about it, 300 competitors paying $200 a head… $60,000. I know there is money paid out, but you are walking away with a big chunk of money still. It probably wouldn’t be brought up as often if someone actually provided a real breakdown.
If you gave us a breakdown of what generally gets paid, then maybe we would understand it and not raise a flag every few months about how we pay so much to receive so little.
Yes there will be those people who say, its about the event, you should just be happy with getting there and showing. This is true, but eventing has become expensive and there is barely anything to show for it.
What are your thoughts?[/QUOTE]
