Cheap ribbons and empty packets – Do events appreciate the clientele?

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=JP60;8222978]
I see customer/business for at the end of the day, I am exchanging money for service, even if that service is hosting a show. I see a symbiotic relationship and one that is not strong right now where it matters the most, keeping people in the sport.[/QUOTE]

Symbiotic relationship yes. The continued existence of events largely depends on support from people already within the eventing community. There is little incentive for anyone else to become involved unless those people are involved in organizations that promote volunteerism in general.

Still can’t think of it as a business, even though money is exchanged. No profit/not a business, per se. Also, I wouldn’t ever say “event organizers” = USEA.

Look at the Red Cross for example. At the top levels? Horrible organization, bloated board, paying large salaries and not very good at distributing funds to locales that people donated specifically to support (eg, Haiti). Local level, fab volunteer-based organization that organizes blood drives and turns out people to help in disasters and teaches people how to swim.

Er, not that I think the USEA is a horrible organization. The reverse actually. Just that the relationship between the “organization,” and those who actually DO STUFF, means you can have 2 different conversations depending on what aspect of the organization you’re talking about. I doubt you even have to be a member of the USEA to host or organize an event. You certainly don’t have to be to volunteer at one.

Also, I don’t think that the USEA has a whole lot of paid staff; largely these people are volunteers, too, and are, hey, members of the eventing community (riders, trainers, officials, etc). And these people do provide boots on the ground, too. The Red Cross Board of Directors? Doubt they’re showing up to sling sandbags in the event of a flood.

Any critique of how events are run, why so few volunteers exist goes back to a criticism of the eventing community as a whole. If we don’t volunteer/participate, why should we expect anyone else to?

The USEA has no control over venues and their continued existence. Either someone volunteers their land for an event, or they don’t. Either places like the Kentucky Horse Park or the New Jersey Horse Park exist, or they don’t. Either events can make enough money to organize an event and maintain, and hopefully improve a venue, or they don’t.

As for why people don’t volunteer: they don’t know, they’d rather sleep in, Life Happens, they’re lazy, they procrastinate. No big mystery, really.

[frugalannie]

JP60, you are clearly bright, articulate and live in an area where there’s lots of eventing. All that is great! Perhaps you would consider volunteering to help one of your local organizers and their financial officer with the books. You could understudy the process and find out what really happens*. At the very least, there could be an article for Eventing magazine out of it which would be educational for everyone. And it would fit in with “real life”, such as any eventer has one :lol:.

• I’m not in any way suggesting that an expose’ is in order or that anything nefarious is going on. I’m just thinking it would be a way to see the nuts and bolts of the event up close and in great detail.

[KayBee]

[QUOTE=Blugal;8222977]
A debrief… would require another volunteer…[/QUOTE]

aHAHAH… :: weeps:

[QUOTE=Blugal;8222977]
3. Lack of gratitude/entitlement of competitors (leaving event sites dirty/garbage, snotty attitudes, etc.)[/QUOTE]

I was a little appalled at the trash left behind at the Horse Park. I picked up 2 chip bags, an empty bottle of water, a 90% full bottle of water, and I don’t know how many empty cups. Really, people?

@Blugal;8222977

5. Those same competitors complain about their local events not having fancy jumps, prizes, prize money, nice stabling, etc. etc. - also complaining about the entries/stabling fees - also complaining that they don’t want to drive out of their local area to attend or to volunteer. But, hypocritically, they will drive to the destination event which is a 12-hour drive away with double entry fee AND requires a health certificate and coggins (at least $100)!!! WTF.

Coggins seem to be needed for all shows, and you need one to cross state lines anyway. We don’t seem to require “health certificates” though.

For people who want “fancy” jumps, here’s a volunteer idea. Ask a local nursery to loan plants/trees in exchange for a few signs advertising the nursery. I’ve seen this done at a few venues and it dresses up the fences without the need for permanent “fanciness.”

[QUOTE=Blugal;8222998]I am SO afraid of the customer/business model. As others have said, that is where H/J went.

I’ve done some A-level shows the past two years on the H/J circuit, and boy, were they expensive. My every need was taken care of though (water and horse treats at the out-gate anyone?). But the ribbons were NOT as fancy as you all would like - because most people compete in so many classes, they can accumulate ribbons quickly - only the championship classes have fancy ribbons.

We are going to price ourselves out of a sport pretty quickly if we try to follow this model. “Back in the day” the simple weekend event at a family farm or lesson facility was relatively common. But these days I think with land prices and open land being more scarce, if we aren’t careful, we won’t have any places to event any more, except the fancy for-profit venues.[/QUOTE]

Land prices and I’m certain ensuing taxes are another factor that goes to budget. Let’s not forget about that aspect.

But otherwise, hell yes, re: the for-profit model.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Blugal;8222977]
A debrief… would require another volunteer… at least in my opinion, since Equine Canada (Canadian Eventing is part of it) doesn’t do anything, so it would be our provincial body (Horse Trials BC), which is volunteer run.

I have theories about why events stopped running. Here are some:

1. organizer/volunteer fatigue. Due it part to distance, it’s the same group of volunteers.

2. Funding. Organizers paying out of their own pocket to subsidize their event. This gets old fast.

3. Lack of gratitude/entitlement of competitors (leaving event sites dirty/garbage, snotty attitudes, etc.)

4. Competitors targeting destination events" in favour of local ones. Partly to do with the new “travel with your trainer” model of eventing.

5. Those same competitors complain about their local events not having fancy jumps, prizes, prize money, nice stabling, etc. etc. - also complaining about the entries/stabling fees - also complaining that they don’t want to drive out of their local area to attend or to volunteer. But, hypocritically, they will drive to the destination event which is a 12-hour drive away with double entry fee AND requires a health certificate and coggins (at least $100)!!! WTF.[/QUOTE]
   Good, you have identified the problems. How do you fix it and you cannot just say “volunteers” Do you/we want to fix it? Does the organization(s) that oversee Events have a part to play and if so, what is it (beyond policing rules).

[JP60]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8223065]
JP60, you are clearly bright, articulate and live in an area where there’s lots of eventing. All that is great! Perhaps you would consider volunteering to help one of your local organizers and their financial officer with the books. You could understudy the process and find out what really happens*. At the very least, there could be an article for Eventing magazine out of it which would be educational for everyone. And it would fit in with “real life”, such as any eventer has one :lol:.

• I’m not in any way suggesting that an expose’ is in order or that anything nefarious is going on. I’m just thinking it would be a way to see the nuts and bolts of the event up close and in great detail.[/QUOTE]
  You brought such a smile to my face. Me…books…money…Bless your heart

Of course we could also just have am organizer be transparent showing a breakdown of costs once the show is complete for I would imagine if they were organized (groan), their ability to make a quick spreadsheet is all ready there.

(side note, the closest show is over 1 hour away and could you imagine a stranger coming up and saying “do you mind if I volunteer to manage your show books? Why…ummm…I want to see real numbers so I can tell the world”.

Yep, I needed a smile today Between you and my grand dame of the farm, I’m feeling better for the smile you both gave me.

[Blugal]

@KayBee;8223091

Coggins seem to be needed for all shows, and you need one to cross state lines anyway. We don’t seem to require “health certificates” though.[/QUOTE]
In our province we don’t need a coggins for events and the health certificates are required to cross the border to any “destination events.”

[QUOTE=KayBee;8223091]For people who want “fancy” jumps, here’s a volunteer idea. Ask a local nursery to loan plants/trees in exchange for a few signs advertising the nursery. I’ve seen this done at a few venues and it dresses up the fences without the need for permanent “fanciness.”

This already happens. It’s another huge job to pick up the plants, place them, keep them watered throughout the show, then pick them up at the end of the show and take them back.

[JP60]

@Blugal;8222998

I am SO afraid of the customer/business model. As others have said, that is where H/J went.

@kaybee

Symbiotic relationship yes. The continued existence of events largely depends on support from people already within the eventing community. There is little incentive for anyone else to become involved unless those people are involved in organizations that promote volunteerism in general.

But at the end of the day, there is a business aspect to it. Money exchanges hands, the event has costs, they take in income and finish with a net something. There may be many variations between Profit and Non-profit (or loss) and again, I am not saying folks are trying to get rich off running shows, but at some point the bottom line is either you look at this in business terms or just run it for free.

I don’t think it fair to compare to H/J world since the base manner in which shows operate are vastly different (including the idea of prize money which is not staple at all in Eventing).

You both keep focusing on volunteers, but without a show you don’t need volunteers and without competitors you don’t have a show so it is not a complete chicken egg problem. How do you build your customer base?

If y’all don’t think there is a problem, fine, no worries, fun debate. But if anyone here, or out there does, then perhaps it is time that the Sport start to think outside the box, try something different to grow it by reaching out to new areas outside our little community.

[Highflyer]

Why not volunteer to do this for a local event?

[Blugal]

JP60. Here is a story that will help you see my perspective.

My parents ran an event in the late 70s/early 80s for about 3 years. It was very popular among competitors, and is still spoken about to this day.

My Dad took 2 weeks off work in the middle of summer to get ready for and run the show. Some competitors showed up early and helped. My mother was out there weed eating and mowing while she was pregnant.

My Dad was in the local Lions Club and so they were recruited to help with different volunteer jobs.

One year it was scorching hot, one year it rained so much people brought their horses into the indoor overnight.

The XC was legendary. It was on public land, so the costs were just in course design and building the jumps. My Dad helped build. I am under the impression that design/building back in those days was not quite so expensive as it is now. Of course the jumps were mainly logs or big timber in different configurations.

The dressage and show jumps were already available as part of the boarding stable facility.

My Dad said each year it cost him about $2,500 out of pocket to run the event. In today’s dollars, that is $7,300. His “return” or left-overs are one wool cooler that was an extra (cool keepsake now) and 45 clipboards that have lived in the basement since time immemorial.

Why did they stop running the event? They were TIRED and it COST too much. (For the record my parents didn’t say it was because of whiny competitors, though the idiot who broke the water pipe during the drought does get brought up sometimes…) How much more would it have cost if they had to pay for land, taxes, show jumps, etc.?

Nowadays my parents go to one particular event a year and volunteer for a week there. They like catching up with the “old guard” and feeling like they are contributing.

[oldbutnotdead]

Bluey - you also need to add in the two weeks your dad took off work (even if paid vacation he could have used it another time), and the value of the endless hours that your parents put into preparing for and running the event. Like the commercial says, though, what your parents did was priceless! Please give them a hug for me.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Blugal;8223215]
JP60. Here is a story that will help you see my perspective.

My parents ran an event in the late 70s/early 80s for about 3 years. It was very popular among competitors, and is still spoken about to this day.

My Dad took 2 weeks off work in the middle of summer to get ready for and run the show. Some competitors showed up early and helped. My mother was out there weed eating and mowing while she was pregnant.

My Dad was in the local Lions Club and so they were recruited to help with different volunteer jobs.

One year it was scorching hot, one year it rained so much people brought their horses into the indoor overnight.

The XC was legendary. It was on public land, so the costs were just in course design and building the jumps. My Dad helped build. I am under the impression that design/building back in those days was not quite so expensive as it is now. Of course the jumps were mainly logs or big timber in different configurations.

The dressage and show jumps were already available as part of the boarding stable facility.

My Dad said each year it cost him about $2,500 out of pocket to run the event. In today’s dollars, that is $7,300. His “return” or left-overs are one wool cooler that was an extra (cool keepsake now) and 45 clipboards that have lived in the basement since time immemorial.

Why did they stop running the event? They were TIRED and it COST too much. (For the record my parents didn’t say it was because of whiny competitors, though the idiot who broke the water pipe during the drought does get brought up sometimes…) How much more would it have cost if they had to pay for land, taxes, show jumps, etc.?

Nowadays my parents go to one particular event a year and volunteer for a week there. They like catching up with the “old guard” and feeling like they are contributing.[/QUOTE]
My heartfelt respect to your parents and thank you for sharing. I do understand a little better. As I learned running a national event, it can be exhausting mentally and that is a factor. it is good they still help.

[Blugal]

oldbutnotdead, you are correct. What I meant was: taking income (entries, stabling) less expenses (officials, jumps etc.), my parents were in the hole $2,500 in cash, plus the time off work, hours etc.

[CindyCRNA]

I am fortunate to live in a town with 2 eventing venues. One is a 501 C (is that very common?) I volunteered the whole weekend at last years recognized because I had a horse out injured. If they are schooling or a schooling show though, barring injuries, I am there as a rider. I don’t think people don’t want to volunteer but what they really want to do is ride.

This thread has made me contact the one venue that is running all summer and ask what I can do to help that would not involve the schooling/schooling weekend. I can go out the day before and help set up the dressage arena. I also asked if I could spearhead ordering ball caps with our logo for the recognized.

[Rackonteur]

[QUOTE=jn4jenny;8219844]
Just for another perspective…if I attended an event that had a lot of frivolous cheap extras, like a little packet of horse treats and a water bottle at the end of XC, I’d be rolling my eyes about why the event didn’t spend my entry fee more wisely. I suspect there are more people like you and more people like me, and event organizers have to balance our desires and needs.

If an event wants to blow cash on “extras,” I’d much prefer to see them spending cash on improving the spectator experience or advertising for more spectators. Events with spectators can attract sponsors and vendors. Events with sponsors and vendors tend to have extras to spare, like prizes for the competitors–which are on display all weekend, really so that the spectators can ogle them and buy one just like it, which helps pay for the prize gear that they’re giving to winning competitors. That’s smarter, to me, than trying to eke prize funding out of an already tight entry fee.[/QUOTE]

This in spades. I couldn’t care less what the ribbon looks like as long as it is actually a ribbon with a rosette and not just one of those little streamer things.

But improving the spectator experience has always been something that matters, IMO.

I’ve hardly shown at all, but I have attended a lot of shows as a spectator or groom, and shows just aren’t as much spectator sports as they were when I was younger. They just aren’t fun. I could go into a whole long description of the differences between local shows when I was a kid, and a young adult, and now, but suffice it to say that they aren’t a spectator sport like they used to be, and they don’t seem to be as enjoyable for the competitors either. One thing I do miss is the ribbon awards ceremony at the end of each class; those hardly exist anymore in my area. And they meant something, they made the show more of a performance, where you could show off (in a good sense).

I’m with jn4jenny about the frivolous cheap extras. I think money could be spent much more appropriately on other things.

[JenJ]

Blugal, I wonder if I ever rode at your parents`event… I started eventing in the early - mid 80s and remember so many great facilities that put on such amazing shows. They are almost all gone now.

We had so many within an hour drive in York Region.

[Blugal]

JenJ, it was in BC - the 108 event which hosted the Pacific Northwest Championships (not sure if the champs were all of the years).

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Rackonteur;8223308]
This in spades. I couldn’t care less what the ribbon looks like as long as it is actually a ribbon with a rosette and not just one of those little streamer things.

But improving the spectator experience has always been something that matters, IMO.

I’ve hardly shown at all, but I have attended a lot of shows as a spectator or groom, and shows just aren’t as much spectator sports as they were when I was younger. They just aren’t fun. I could go into a whole long description of the differences between local shows when I was a kid, and a young adult, and now, but suffice it to say that they aren’t a spectator sport like they used to be, and they don’t seem to be as enjoyable for the competitors either. One thing I do miss is the ribbon awards ceremony at the end of each class; those hardly exist anymore in my area. And they meant something, they made the show more of a performance, where you could show off (in a good sense).

I’m with jn4jenny about the frivolous cheap extras. I think money could be spent much more appropriately on other things.[/QUOTE]

Not to be pedantic , but saying you don’t care what a ribbon looks like then turn around and state what you do care about in a ribbon is a little confusing.

Anyway, what I am interested in is your viewpoints about the changes as a spectator. Could part of it just be the act of growing up? How we see the world as a child compared to an adult is night and day. What is it about the competitors you notice, then and now?

I too missed the ribbon award moment, not much of a thing to do to make folks happy.

Where would you spend your money?

[Blugal]

Ok ok fine. I’ll admit I was disappointed this spring when I got to participate in a victory lap (these are so seldom anyway), and the announcer said, “we’re going to do this at trot, folks.” Trot?!?!

[lecoeurtriste]

[QUOTE=ACMEeventing;8222633]
Ooh!! Do you still have that old show folder that had me and my palomino on it? I’d give my right stirrup to have one of those, lost mine in the move

Those were fun times. I did my first “away” show there, my first Prelim, my first Training CT . . .

(Sorry, now I’m completely reminiscing)[/QUOTE]

I don’t have that, but Susan might…

The highest score I could find (just skimming the 40 shows in my USEA folder was a 150.0 in an Open Novice division…but there were also 131, 136.2, and a 147.2 in some of the early events. I know no one wants to blame course designers, but the number of triple digit jumping faults went down considerably after we changed CD to John Williams (the first two CD we had were not a good fit for the terrain challenges and our clients).

One of these days, I’ll event again! (C’mon 3yo–grow up already!)

[frugalannie]

For those who miss the formal ribbon presentation with victory gallop, I concur. But it’s very difficult to do that when XC is last. The logistics of collecting jump judge’s sheets, having a 30 minute “provisional” period and then calling those who placed back are daunting if not impossible. Not even easy in a one day event that runs in traditional order, but doable for an experienced team.

Just sayin’ “Thank you, FEI.”