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Chestnuts (on legs)... explaining them to a creationist???

Off Course
#141

Im an evolutionist, so you know were my answer lies… and everyone is right, there is no sense argueing with them, everyine has a right to belive what they want, BUT you really cant deny scientific proof, kind of like dino;s nver lived, but al the fossils we have ore fake…

that said i do belife that jesues once lived as a dramatised man in HISTORY…but trying to convince someone who already has there belifes set is a wast in time, just tell them yes thats what you belive, and …hey proof not word of mouth…i always think of how much things have cahnged ovr time and what was perceived then and how it would be today… and were going by things written 2000 years ago with a complete diff, mind sett…

#142

[QUOTE=greysandbays;1943602]
And this is exactly why it also has the highest probablity of being wrong. That old adage about “If it seems too good to be true, then it probably is” applies to a lot more than scammer’s schemes.[/QUOTE]

Horse evolution doesn’t seem too good to be true (how would one define that, anyway?). It seems…hmm…true. Wow, what a concept. Something is proven to be true…and it’s true! Shocking.

#143

It is touted as the infallible “evidence” of evolution. A scientists dream scenario, with a minimum of “missing links”. If we were offered a money-making scheme this good, we’d know right off it was a scam. The evoluting horse may be science’s Shroud of Turin.

Anyway, there isn’t any way you can prove beyond all doubt that this evolution thing is right unless you can do DNA parentage verification all the way back to whatever-hippus supposedly preceded Equus Caballus.

#144

I don’t think that even DNA evidence would convince the true believer…

I’d sure like to hear their oppinion on the HUman Genome poject - I am sure I butchered the spelling…

The traced - via DNA the human conquest of the world from the East African Plains to the Middle East and from there to Europe and on the other branch to the Far East, Siberia and across the Bering Straight into the North Americas. By their guestimation the Native AMerican tribes, From Alaska to Tierra de Fuego decended from roughly around 24 people - total! (BTW, that is proof for evolution, since…we all look different!)

#145

The paleontological/fossil record substantiates the evolution of the horse.

The archaeological and historical records do not substantiate the existence of Jesus. Jesus is a theory with far less scientific evidence than evolution.

Funny, isn’t it, that we have a better historical record of Egyptian hairdressers and minor local officials who lived centuries BC? But then I suppose a future archaeologist looking at our culture might surmise that we worshiped Paris Hilton.

Creationism is an emotional argument. It’s not rational, it’s fear-based and reactive, so maybe we should add the creationists to our daily prayers.

#146

As far as the chestnuts being remains of the toes and Creationists not thinking that was possible, my answer is this: the world has changed since God created it (which is my belief…if there was a Big Bang, well, I’ve never had the question answered as to…What banged?? And what caused the Bang? My answer–God.), therefore, wouldn’t the things that He created change along with the world? I don’t believe that we evolved from apes or crawled out of some primordial stew as alligators or that we were put here by aliens. I believe that we were created as some form of humans or humanoids. Were they cavemen or Neanderthals? I don’t know. But I know that we look differently now than we did 300 years ago (taller, for one). Therefore, we have, in some way, evolved. So, what’s to say that horses didn’t start out tiny and with five toes?

It’s a throwback to the original Catholic church and being told that if you believed anything aside from what the church taught, you were blasphemous and going to Hell. Too many churches don’t point out that the Bible was written by PEOPLE and people are NOT perfect.

There are so many things in the Bible which don’t match up with what we’ve discovered about our world. The best solution if you’re Christian is to not take the bible literally word-for-word.

You also have to keep in mind that when the Bible was written, it was not written in an easy-to-translate format. As someone who has studied Middle Eastern languages, I can’t tell you how many different meanings one word can have. For example, the verse that says, “It is easier for a camel to go through the Eye of the Needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” That verse can be translated two ways. IIRC, the Eye of the Needle was a hole in the outer walls that certain people had to go through to enter the city. In order to go through, the camels had to be completely unloaded, the packs passed through, and then the camel had to pretty much crawl through, and then be reloaded. Not an easy process. However, the original word for “camel” was either the same or extremely similar as the word “rope.” So it could be either. In addition to those difficulties, there was no “Chapter One. Page 1. Page 2. Page 3. Chapter Two.” type organization to the writings. AND, there was little or no punctuation. So, it’s almost ridiculous to take the Bible word for word. However, even though certain things may be mistaken, I believe that on the whole, it is correct.

[QUOTE=JER;1943868]The paleontological/fossil record substantiates the evolution of the horse.
The archaeological and historical records do not substantiate the existence of Jesus. Jesus is a theory with far less scientific evidence than evolution…Creationism is an emotional argument. It’s not rational, it’s fear-based and reactive, so maybe we should add the creationists to our daily prayers.[/QUOTE]
I suggest you read these books: Evidence That Demands a Verdict: Volume 1 by Josh McDowell and Evidence That Demands a Verdict: Volume 2. The author was an agnostic who set out to scientifically disprove Christianity and instead found evidence that proved it. These books are full of nothing but scientific evidence. They are not written from emotion, but from intellect and are a great read for anyone who is curious about the scientific PROOF of the Bible.
As to WHY horses (still?) have chestnuts…who knows? It may turn out that they really do breathe through them. :wink:

#147

we were put ont his earth for a reason what that reason is i dont know

there is many planets and galaxies --so we are not the only inhabitat planet

the universe is to big – we have ufos that visit us often

my beleif is that god as there is just not one god or one relegion there is many

bible say god rose up from the dead and came back–
inthe wall of the acient aborigines and acient pyramids there is drawing of a man that has a space suit on

i beleive that we are experiment --for out side our control

i belive god or god were spacemen – yeah wacky and mad but

how else do you explain when someone dies and then rose up to cmoe back serveral day days after death–

if you put an ant in a jam ajr and call one male adam and one female eve
with earth and a leaf then you would have a population of ants before
you knew it —

ants have been here before christ – and will be after we all dead and gone

ants are the only species that never changed thoughout time –

and thats what this all boils down to time–

if god was so clever and or gods then there would be wars and or sick people some say its because of the sin or sins commited that your family lays witha curse so bad things will happen etc

some will balme ther relegion-- and debate as like on here a simple thing
so others get het up as they have to have there views

the question was what are chesnuts and ergot s
now its turn into a battle of eveloution versa relegion

and that is how wars are started –
we are all children of our parents and our parents are our children parents

some are born to lead and some are born to be lead

but you cannot become a leader with choking people into what you belie is the correct way or right way that will cause a defense and a battle of wits

the true god doesnt need to ram down beliefs for those belief then become a comonist – to over take like hitler for exsample or terrorist the choke people –

as to the esperiement with ufos of whome has put the ants in jar –
to see if they live or die , or fight —for what ever the reason as it always a reason the reason in most casses is power

yeah power who has the power-- for a few to lead and get others to follow in there beleives–

me – iam unique-- i am my own god my own person of whome likes balance
as with out that you cant exsist-- balance not one nor the other
its the same and everybody is equal—

and i dont have to ram down my belief --for or against –
becuase i just a person with my own vlaues and morals and standards

am a just person — just – but others might say i am mad beucaase i beleive in ufos-- and other planets and life –

and i beileve all the gods were in fact spacemen as how else
would one be only one – god can not enpolinate himself – if he were human

hitler tried to clone himself and to day people trying to clone things to.

my point its today that counts the past is heriditory and what people did or didnt do we can learn from–

not one person in this world can say they know everything becuase it was written –

if you dont know you ask a question – its about knowledge and learning
so the world of the future with all the gods and beleifs
can work together and be balanced ---------

#148

[QUOTE=greysandbays;1943602]
And this is exactly why it also has the highest probablity of being wrong. That old adage about “If it seems too good to be true, then it probably is” applies to a lot more than scammer’s schemes.[/QUOTE]

Again, your argument is a logical fallacy. Please, if you are going to bother arguing in a logical manner, don’t base your statements on faulty logic.

#149

Koresh and Waco, TX then.

And people in Christ’s time thought he was plumb crazy too.

#150

Just to be clear, scientifically prove what? That there are Christians? Or something else? I ask because I’m curious with intelligent design being presented to students, why this guy’s name was never brought up.

#151

Please don’t distort what the Pope did. The Catholic church in early history (when it was the only christian church) DID have a little bit of an issue with science. Okay, a lot of an issue. But since then a lot has happened including an acknowledgement of the probability of evolution.

What the pope has been doing is going back and publically apologizing for actions of the early church (a part of which, he was not). So, it’s not that there are any new revelations, but rather to make attempts at reparations for the past.

Just had to clear that up.

#152

[QUOTE=jetsmom;1941740]
You know that little nub on the back of their pasterns…It grows…you can trim them…That’s the ergot.[/QUOTE]

They’re like hard mini-marshmallows, or marshmallows, depending on the size of your horse.

I don’t think the scent thing is such a bad explanation, only that it is certainly not evidence that evolution did not happen.

I think there is enough DNA evidence that traces genetic development to prove evolution. If someone wants to believe that God planned it (evolution) that way, I’m cool with that, but don’t tell me that what evidence scientists have found doesn’t exist.

Evolution is not a statement that we came from apes. The way a friend/biologist explained it is that it is simply that species change due to genetic mutation.

#153

[QUOTE=Alagirl;1943867]
I don’t think that even DNA evidence would convince the true believer…

I’d sure like to hear their oppinion on the HUman Genome poject - I am sure I butchered the spelling…

The traced - via DNA the human conquest of the world from the East African Plains to the Middle East and from there to Europe and on the other branch to the Far East, Siberia and across the Bering Straight into the North Americas. By their guestimation the Native AMerican tribes, From Alaska to Tierra de Fuego decended from roughly around 24 people - total! (BTW, that is proof for evolution, since…we all look different!)[/QUOTE]

There is a really good article in a semi-recent National Geographic magazine on that with wonderful maps and diagrams, of course.

I believe they’ve traced mDNA (mitochondrial) back to a single female in Africa. Eve they call her. Now I don’t know if she was wandering around alone, one of a species, or whether her “Adam”'s DNA hadn’t mutated into homo sapiens, they had a kid, and that kid carried on the homo sapiens DNA? Now, who the kid mated with I don’t know either. I’d have to go back and read the article, or another. Maybe it’s like dogs (canis familiaris) and wolves (canis lupus) … two species that can breed. Maybe homo sapiens had to mate with similar species for awhile to keep the gene pool spread out.

To keep it horse related, I read there is a mDNA project to trace thoroughbred bloodlines back to the matriarchs of the breed (rather than the founding stallions) since breeding records in England weren’t always that accurate and the horses didn’t even always have a name - just The someone’s Chestnut (or Bay). It was very interesting.

Now if you want to believe God gave us this puzzle to figure out, that makes a little more sense.

#154

Oaksbrae, thanks for explaining more about why the Catholic Church had to forgive nowadays.

Parysa, what Christians are you referring to? :confused: You are one of the Christians; therefore, ???

#155

In the beginning, there was nothing.

And then God said “Let there be light!”

And there was still nothing.

But at least you could see it…

#156

Definitely current to this discussion,

Darwin’s work to be online…thousands of documents and findings

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15346154/?GT1=8618

#157

So last night Ted wanted to know, how did marshmallow peeps evolve? And then I remembered…it’s a company called JustBorn, in Bethlehem, PA…

ooo-eee-ohhhh…

It broke my heart to tell him they evolved from the pre Cambrian Campfire marshmallow, and that the JetPuff marshmallow creme is an evolutionary divergence and how we now have fudge.

#158

I hope this thread gets put into the archives. Save a few nasty posts, it’s very interesting – and informative.

I haven’t had time to read the last few pages, so this may already have been discussed. If not, I’d like to toss it into the pot:

The bible was written (perhaps under devine guidance) in a time when the scientific method and knowledge were virtually unheard of – although the Greeks, Orientals, and certain Mid-East civilizations were getting the idea. It was worded and phrased in terms and concepts that could be easily comprehended by the uneducated, which most were at that time. It’s also suffered somewhat in the various translations (FWIW I prefer the King James version – but then, I also enjoy reading Shakespear), even to the point of being ‘politically corrected’ in some cases.

It’s also interesting to note that many amateur astronomers are in the clergy, and some write articles for newspapers and even astronomy magazines.

#159

And I’m certainly grateful to one monk in particular, Gregor Mendel. Just a side note - his original paper did “pick and choose” the data. That is because he wanted to get his point across. I think he had 7 or 8 phenotypes he was studying, and what are the odds that each phenotype would just happen to assort independently onto different chromosomes?

#160

I don’t usually get involved in discussions like this because things just get too emotional, illogical, and I know what I believe although I respect other’s opinions. This discussion just reminded me of something I overheard at work the other day. I work in a library and there are many highly religious homeschoolers that come in. Two of these parents were talking about videos they had taken out and one remarked - oh that one includes evolution theories and we would never take THAT out (she sneered as she said that)! The attitude of closed mindedness really surprised me. 33% of the world’s population is Christian - therefore less than 33% are fundamental, literal word for word interpretations of the bible. Does that mean that the rest of the world’s population has it wrong on how the world was created… what about the other religions that have other theories - why should they be discounted. Basically what I mean is, sure believe what you want (I have no problem with that unless it hurts or isolates certain groups of people) if it helps you to have a more meaningful and fufilling life - that’s wonderful! Just don’t close your mind to other ideas and perspectives you’ll be amazed with the amount of new knowledge and understanding that you could gain.

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