Choosing a stallion for my mare!

[JB]

First, what a LOVELY mare! I’m sorry to hear she’s injured, hopefully this is just a temporary setback?

@Ranorth

I would like to improve on her long back and terrible tb hooves.

Her back isn’t long at all

Do you have any pics of her feet? “terrible” is pretty subjective

That said, if her feet are really genetically that bad, you might find you can’t improve them a ton, so decide if a little improvement is good enough.

@Ranorth

I think it could be the photo, she’s very long.

Even seeing this picture, it’s not “very long”. Many would say it’s a great length for a mare to carry a foal. I think too many people have gotten used to the more recent (it’s been a while, I think it’s slowly trending away) trend of pretty short backs, breeding for “tall rectangles”. Your mare is much more square, to maybe approaching a slightly long rectangle

Leg-wise, she’s a bit camped out behind, but nothing that makes me cringe. Her front legs are a bit light-boned even for a TB, and a bit tie-in. You just want a really correct-legged stallion.

I even hesitated saying “light boned” because in general, TBs ARE lighter-boned relative to their size than many other breeds, but what most forget is that they have been bred for a very long time for bone density. There’s just more to bone integrity than cannon circumference

I have no input on stallion ideas, that’s taken care of by others, I just wanted to add those things about her confo

[Ranorth]

Thank you! She really is very lovely and a total badass at her job, she is definitely a training level packer at this point, but the past few years have been one thing after another. She struck her DDFT And was out for six months since then it’s been one thing after another, issues with her feet, I had a baby blah blah

Anyway, she just got back from a month long stay at the clinic where we almost lost her due to cellulitis. Instead of picking her up yet again, I’ve made the decision that I would like to go ahead and breed her since I’ve always wanted to have her babies. I really want to be able to make it to the one star level and after this, she’s probably going to max out at training.

I don’t know about her bloodlines, but I do know the other horses I was able to find by her sire have been sport horses.

[thereadinghorse]

I’m no expert no Trakehners. So my opinion might be based on expierence and things I heard other more expierenced people say. Keep that in mind while reading and don’t take every word as 100%. I’m just sharing my impressions.

I did a research with the german Trakehner Verband (I’m german, so that’s my main source of information). It’s 102 dressage studs to 72 jumping/eventing/double talented studs.

And this shows, what I mean. Of course there are many Ts doing well in eventing and jumping. But T tend to be bred to be somehow double talented, which is why they make such good eventers. But there are few real jumping specialist compared to the hugh amount of good double talented horses.

I heard several people, breeders, trainers and such say, that Ts are nice, but nothing for the very high end showjumping ring. Because they “do all a bit, but nothing right”. Of course this is partly just a prejudice, but it’s somehow true.

If you look into WBFSH Rankings for Jumping and Eventing, the first 10 sires are:

Jumping:

RANK	SIRE NAME	POINTS
1st (2nd)*	DIAMANT DE SEMILLY	26,077
2nd (1st)*	CHACCO-BLUE	26,000
3rd (4th)*	KANNAN	22,013
4th (3rd)*	MYLORD CARTHAGO*HN	16,906
5th (10th)*	VDL ZIROCCO BLUE	13,523
6th (5th)*	TOULON	13,291
7th (6th)*	CASALL	12,904
8th (7th)*	CARDENTO 933	12,764
9th (8th)*	ELDORADO VD ZESHOEK	12,534
10th (16th)*	COMME IL FAUT 5	10,294

No Trakehner in this list.

Eventing:

RANK	SIRE NAME	POINTS
1st (1st)*	DIARADO	1,662
2nd (3rd)*	OBOS QUALITY 004	1,138
3rd (2nd)*	GRAFENSTOLZ / BIRKHOF’S GRAFENSTOLZ	1,091
4th (4th)*	JAGUAR MAIL	1,084
5th (9th)*	KANNAN	728
6th (53rd)*	ZAVALL VDL	640
7th (5th)*	CONTENDRO I	626
8th (34th)*	PUISSANCE	625
9th (38th)*	UPSILON	576
10th (14th)*	DIAMANT DE SEMILLY	574

Grafenstolz ist Trakehner. And here you find some xx and AA blood as well. Which is in many of the Trakehners that are good in eventing.

So what I wanted to say is, that Trakehners are very nice and good horses, but tend to be lesser specified for a certain breeding direction. Dressage horses and jumpers do come from the same dam lines, whereas this is pretty different with other registries.

[beowulf]

You didn’t say “There are no Trakehners in the Top WBFSH Rankings”. You said:

@thereadinghorse

It’s just that the jumping lines in Trakehners are VERY rare.

And yet, a Trakehner is in 3rd place for Eventing according to WBFSH Rankings. You have representation in the top 3 from one of the smallest WB breed registries in the world. That’s statistically significant.

I can completely understand not wanting to breed to a Trakehner. But I completely disagree with the assessment that the breed does not have scope or does not have jumping bloodlines.

[JB]

She’s not heavy or downhill in front at all. She’s not even butt-high. She’s very, very functionally uphill, in fact

Her front legs are well in front of her withers - that physically lightens the forehand.
Her neck emerges above the point of her shoulder, which is in a great position, maybe a tad lower than ideal.
Her lumbo-sacral gap is right over the point of her hip where it belongs, which means she’s got the ability to fully use her hind end for power and engagement.

Those 3 things determine how functionally uphill a horse is, and she’s got them all in the right places

Her biggest flaws are indeed her legs - a bit camped out in back, a bit light and tied in in front. But she’s worked pretty hard for many years, and her injury seems to have come from an accident rather than just working.

A neck can’t tie in a lot higher than it is here, and when it does, it would come from a bit of a higher point of shoulder.

[Arlomine]

Um. No… it’s a small registry, so that skews the numbers.

OP Breed to Hirtentanz.
Among other things, he’s a proven sire, and the first Trak to be entered into the Holsteiner stud book in 40 years. That’s pretty much not done, and it is was done because of his show jumping abilities, and his breeding statistics. He has sired many, many, many good jumping horses.

https://www.trakehnerassociation.com/hirtentanz

Hirentanz was imported to the USA in November of 2019 after retiring 100% sound from Grand Prix jumping / International “S” level at 16 years old. He was the winner of the multiple Grand Prix competitions in Germany and a Bundesturnier Champion multiple times. Was approved in Neumunster as a Premium stallion and has since earned the prestigious Elite Hengste designation by the Trakehner Verband in Germany. He is the first Trakehner stallion to be approved by the Holsteiner Verband in 40 years!

[McGurk]

I am a huge fan of Irish horses, and they are very well represented in eventing.

I would look at either an RID or an ISH stallion for your lovely mare. You’d get a little more substance, and probably better feet. In general, they tend to be ammy family and have good work ethics.

I particularly like Formula One, sire of Landmark’s Monte Carlo.

[Nootka]

I plugged my own boy but will 2nd Hirtentanz! He is on my short list to cross to one of my boy’s fillies.

I absolutely love him

[Ranorth]

A conversation with my vet has me considering a Connemara cross again. Does anyone have any experience breeding to them? I’ll either do that or breed to one of the bigger boned jumpers.

[Warmblood1]

Are you looking for fresh or cooled semen?
Is your mare approved for any major WB registries?
What do you intend to do with the foal? Is this a foal you intend to sell?
What are you looking for in the foal temperament wise? IE will this be a foal for an amateur or a professional, etc?

[Warmblood1]

Something to consider with a maiden mare when you don’t know what she produces is a stallion consistent with your mare’s type and conformation. Crossing different breeds with different conformational types can result in somewhat unpredictable results. You might find a Connemara stallion that really suits her, but I honestly think you will have better results with a heavier WB type that is a proven jumper. I think she is absolutely lovely but I think a foal with more substance would be ideal.

[Arlomine]

I have owned two. Both thoroughbred crosses. Both very nice, sound, good minded Horses. There is an excellent Connemara stallion in California.

https://goodpony.net/stallion

[SPRINGBORO]

what a fascinating pedigree!

Her sire, Go Bob, is a G1 winner and from the Bold Ruler line by the solid G1 performer, Bordeaux Bob.

Go Bob’s dam, Pabla Merce, is by Merce Cunningham, a full brother to Caerleon (!) and her dam is a full sister to the very famous Mat-Boy, Argentine Horse of the Year.

The dam, Free China, is from a good California family

[Ranorth]

Continuing my education and speaking to some pros in the area, it might be a good idea as warmblood1 mentioned to breed to something to give more predictable results since she is a maiden mare and not sure what she’ll throw. Seems safer than breeding something all parts and pieces the first time.

This would be a horse for myself, that I could ideally do a one or two star on, that being said, I want something rideable enough that if it’s not my forever horse, it can have another job. I think I have it narrowed to these two:

Diacontinus
https://www.superiorequinesires.com/diacontinus/

Worthy Opponent

Eurequine - Stallions - WORTHY OPPONENT

[BrownDerby]

That’s my old farrier (doing the riding) and his wife. I can vouch for that stallion’s lovely disposition, feet, and versatility.

[Trak_Eventer]

Hirtentanz is an awesome stallion! Just wanted to note that Trakehner Association of North American (TANA) is not recognized by the Trakehner Verband. The American Trakehner Association is the only registry in North America recognized by the Trakehner Verband and the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses. That is important to note when registering a foal/horse to make sure papers/registration are recognized since there are competitions that require WBFSH affiliation along with many other stubook/registries needing registration paperwork from a recognized studbook. For example, a horse registered with ATA would be eligible for a competition like Le Lion, but a TANA recorded horse would not. Other competitions are moving in that direction.

Good news is that foals by inactive stallions with the ATA (Hirtentanz for example) are still eligible for registration with the ATA.

I know it is confusing and some folks aren’t aware, so feel free to PM me if you have further questions

[EventerAJ]

@JB

I even hesitated saying “light boned” because in general, TBs ARE lighter-boned relative to their size than many other breeds, but what most forget is that they have been bred for a very long time for bone density. There’s just more to bone integrity than cannon circumference

This needs repeated again. Cannon bone circumference does not mean “bone strength.” You want a horse with an evenly matched frame (not big bodied on toothpick legs) but a light-boned, light-framed horse is still “sturdy” and “durable.” I know to the human eye, those match-stick legs look weak and frail…but that’s not always the case. Large bone, as in the case of draft horses, is often porous; compared to light bone of Arabians, which is extremely dense. The light-boned Arabian was bred to run all day, putting a lot of fast miles on their legs; compared to the heavy draft horse that was bred to be strong at a walk. The draft horse bone isn’t designed for heavy pounding, jump landings, and speed work; it’s thick, yes, but not built to withstand significant concussive force.

TBs with big heavy bone might be more prone to injury, not less, as added weight at the end of their long, “pendulum” legs is increased strain on the body when working at speed. Sport horses don’t perform at the speed of racehorses, so heavier bone (compared to TB) is not a detriment. Joint angles, hoof quality, and muscle development has much more to do with a sport horse’s soundness than the amount of bone it has.

[Warmblood1]

Diacontinus I think is a really nice option. I think the foal would be very marketable blood line wise but ammy friendly should one day you have to sell. Strong dam line with numerous proven and licensed sons. He has a nice hind end that I think would complement and improve upon your mare’s. I really like his canter and hind step, I think it will improve your mare’s dressage ability.

I would expect about the same amount of substance on your mare using this type of stallion. He is gray, but some people do not worry about this.

Worthy Opponent is very interesting from a pedigree standpoint because he’s largely dressage bred. My hesitation is with using Hohenstein on this mare because he is known as a refining stallion. I’ve used trak blood as far back as third generation and still had it significantly refine. Worthy Opponents breeding contract is very good though with the 3 year LFG and fresh semen that can be collected daily. That’s very lucrative for a maiden mare. What are the contract terms for Diacontinus? It is frozen I assume?

ETA: worth noting that I believe Diacontinus is approved Hanno and GOV. Your mare would likely need to be inspected for approval to register the foal. Worthy Opponent does have more options registration wise. You can also have your mare inspected with a foal by her side - nice offspring will help her with inspections. But I really do not think you will have a problem entering your mare into a marebook, she’s very nice in type.

[Ranorth]

One of the reasons I’ve wanted to breed her! She has a full sister somewhere I wasn’t able to track down, and a half brother who is also now a show jumper but I couldn’t find much else.

She’s a freak of nature in many very good ways, giant jump and insane stamina and gallop. Always had to circle at the end to make time (too fast) even at training level Never had a fault xc, and ran in a snaffle. Dressage we were rather at the very top, or very bottom Anyway, I really want to keep the line going

[SPRINGBORO]

im so sorry to tell you, but her full sister broke down at Golden Gate.

"Fractured RF sesamoids training at Golden Gate January 24, 2014 - Euthanized due to injuries received. "