Circle detail question...how big is a 10 meter circle.

[CHT]

I know this sounds nitpicky, but it is something I have been thinking about, both as a rider and as a judge.

Is a 10 meter circle from the track to the centerline with the horse’s spine, or to the centerline with the outside of the horse?

Or if at A or C, is the circle from 1/4 line to 1/4 line with the horse’s spine, or does the horse’s outside edge meet the 1/4 line?

Either way, the 10 meter circle off the long side would be a slightly different size than the circle at A or C wouldn’t it?

Obviously the 10 meter half circle to X is from the E/B to the centerline with the horse’s spine so you hit centerline, but obviously a 20 meter circle is the outside of the horse hitting the 20 meter mark and not the spine.

I know this is likely over thinking it, but it is been nagging me.

[atlatl]

Just had this conversation at a clinic and was told that the outside of the horse defines the outside of a circle. That makes sense to me since that’s pretty much what’s on the rail.

Either way 10m is 10m

[KBC]

LOL, for some reason I got a fit of the giggles in a lesson last week when I was asked to make “a small 10 meter circle”

A 10m circle is 10m, they don’t come ‘big’ or ‘small’

Apart from that observation @atlatl has it right…

[RedHorses]

I make my 10m circles the same size regardless of whether I start from the track ot centreline. So my horse’s feet are on the centreline, not to one side.

Which means that either the circle has a flat spot on the track or it is a 9.5m diameter - since the fence is 10m from the centreline and we ride inside that point…

[Ambitious_Kate]

Interesting. Not that I “know” anything; but I had always assumed I was measuring my feet/track as 10 meters. Otherwise, a big fat cold blood horse would have a different track within a 10 meter circle measured from, the outside, than would a skinny OTTB. But if we are truly measuring 10 meters as from rail to centerline, then this is something to think about.

[theresak]

A 5* judge told me in 4th and PSG the most frequent comment in the voltes is they are too big, especially the second half. She said to make sure the first half of the circle is on the inside of the “line” so that the second half is the correct size. So if you circle 10m from E to X, your outside knee should touch X, not the horse’s middle.

[merrygoround]

10 m circles can go from quarter line to quarter line in the center of the arena, anywhere up and down its length. They can also go from the wall to the centerline.

The are 1/2 the size of the 20m circle.

I would say that initially doing them off the wall, with a cone on the centerline will help you get the feel for the bend required. A few hundred of these and you should have it down pat.

[netg]

If you do a 10m circle any way but bisected at centerline (if going from E or B), how would you possibly have straightness at X and even half circles when doing 2 half 10m circles?

[Mondo]

I think it is very telling that this question was posed by: 1. a judge; and 2. they have received several slightly different answers.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Mondo

I think it is very telling that this question was posed by: 1. a judge; and 2. they have received several slightly different answers.

Me too. There are a few movements that generate this kind of uncertainty. Try discussing turn on haunches:lol: That is even worse. But I have to say, this is an excellent question! It is similar to “where does a transition occur” - is it the horse’s head, shoulder, rider’s leg, ?

If you are headed up c-line - your horse is “straddled” on c-line, and then a 10 meter circle goes to the rail, yes? OTOH, most judges want a 10 meter circle that STARTS on the rail to stay within c-line (as atlatl pointed out), so that means actually slightly less then 10 meter. Interesting, isn’t it?

[LarkspurCO]

@netg

If you do a 10m circle any way but bisected at centerline (if going from E or B), how would you possibly have straightness at X and even half circles when doing 2 half 10m circles?

In a 10m circle why would you want straightness at X? You’re still on the circle there.

You’d have to change the bend for a half circle through X, but that’s a different movement. What am I missing?

[netg]

@LarkspurCO

In a 10m circle why would you want straightness at X? You’re still on the circle there.

You’d have to change the bend for a half circle through X, but that’s a different movement. What am I missing?

That I specified 2 half circles through X, so yes you have a moment of straightness at the center as you switch bend.

Are you saying two 10m half circles are actually two 11m half circles?

[pluvinel]

@MysticOakRanch

Me too. There are a few movements that generate this kind of uncertainty. Try discussing turn on haunches:lol: That is even worse. But I have to say, this is an excellent question! It is similar to “where does a transition occur” - is it the horse’s head, shoulder, rider’s leg, ?

If you are headed up c-line - your horse is “straddled” on c-line, and then a 10 meter circle goes to the rail, yes? OTOH, most judges want a 10 meter circle that STARTS on the rail to stay within c-line (as atlare ointed out), so that means actually slightly less then 10 meter. Interesting, isn’t it?

And people in the Dressage Powers That Be are suggesting a qualifying rule?

These are basic questions that are fundamental to consistency in judging.

How can one expect a valid judging system when the answers to these questions are (a) either so unclear; (b) undefined © left up to individual judges to interpret?

[atlatl]

@pluvinel

And people in the Dressage Powers That Be are suggesting a qualifying rule?

These are basic questions that are fundamental to consistency in judging.

How can one expect a valid judging system when the answers to these questions are (a) either so unclear; (b) undefined © left up to individual judges to interpret?

Touche!

I’ll fall back on my refrain about people reading the rules and definition of the movements. I suspect, but don’t know for sure, that this actually is documented somewhere. Now I’ll have to look for it.

[atlatl]

@netg

That I specified 2 half circles through X, so yes you have a moment of straightness at the center as you switch bend.

Are you saying two 10m half circles are actually two 11m half circles?

I would say that the half circles aren’t exactly 10m (but not a full meter larger in diameter) because you position the horse to transition to the second half circle over CL.

[digihorse]

I was always taught and ride that the 10 meter circle should land ON the centerline. If you are inside the CL then it is not 10 meters. The idea is that in a half circle to the centerline you should not need to deviate to be ON the centerline. The old military judges would skewer you for not being on the CL.

[CHT]

Good to read that I am not crazy and that there are different ideas on how to size the circle. Obviously if the directives say the movement is to X (so half circle E to X), I would expect the horse’s spine to get to X, but if it is just a circle then this is less clear. It seems to me a 10 meter circle should be inside the centerline just like a 20 meter circle is inside 20 meters.

[LarkspurCO]

@netg

That I specified 2 half circles through X, so yes you have a moment of straightness at the center as you switch bend.

Are you saying two 10m half circles are actually two 11m half circles?

No, I think I just misunderstood what you were saying.

[digihorse]

@CHT

Good to read that I am not crazy and that there are different ideas on how to size the circle. Obviously if the directives say the movement is to X (so half circle E to X), I would expect the horse’s spine to get to X, but if it is just a circle then this is less clear. It seems to me a 10 meter circle should be inside the centerline just like a 20 meter circle is inside 20 meters.

No. a 20 meter circle is NOT inside 20 meters. Too literal an interpretation . The arena is considered 20 meters wide. You ride a 20 meter circle track to track… If one were nitpicking in a bad way… you would say you are not at 20 meters… because you are inside that demarcation line. That would defeat the concept. You are not directed to ride a 18 meter circle… which is what your definition would be. The centerline of the horse’s body is always the point of reference in regards to “track” 2 feet on each side unless performing a lateral movement. Each corner should be a quarter of the smallest circle called for in the test… so 10 meters for 1st and a volte (6m) for GP.

Riders are taught to “touch” the centerline… because most will cross it if you don’t give that instruction in the beginning. But should learn to ride more precisely with time.

[alibi_18]

@CHT

Good to read that I am not crazy and that there are different ideas on how to size the circle. Obviously if the directives say the movement is to X (so half circle E to X), I would expect the horse’s spine to get to X, but if it is just a circle then this is less clear. It seems to me a 10 meter circle should be inside the centerline just like a 20 meter circle is inside 20 meters.

It is not less clear, and it’s all in the rule.

You are a judge?

This is all just simple geometry.
The ring is 20 x 40 (or 60m)
X is on center line at 10m from B or E.
Quarter lines are at 5m each.
You have the track around the ring.
You have the track in the center of the ring.
and tracks on diagonals.

It is not unclear at all and all the judges I worked with or received comments from were looking for accuracy in geometry. If your circle is too small, uncentered, oval, uneven, too big… They will let you know.

For the half circles : You have to go on centerline. But at First or Second level, horses are less supple and less quick, the expectation isn’t the same. So it is «normal » to prepare the change of bend a little before X and to end it a little after X (as long as it is well centered and even on both sides). You’ll get a 6.5 or a 7 if everything else is perfect.
But that doesn’t mean the circles have to be smaller!!! The goal should be to do the change of bend as quickly as possible on the centerline (over X) within a stride, and get an 8+.