I have always thought of the 10 meter circles as being defined by the horse’s spine on the centerline, and touching the track. OP is right that this is a little bit inconsistent with the 20 m case. To be consistent with the 20 m circle then, the circle would have to be measured just outside the horse’s hoofprints.
2 Likes
Really hard to argue with this logic.
2 Likes
Nope. Same goes for the 20m circle.
maybe I am wrong… when I grew up our instructors told us we should ride a circle so that basically our stirrup-irons touch the points. So if you do a circle at B, your stirrup irons touch B and then the centerline again. So basically the horse is inside the circle line with most parts of his body. his outline is the circle line.
1 Like
Some tests have a 10 meter half-turn from E or B to centerline, halt salute at G. To ride that, you’d have to be straddling centerline.
2 Likes
off topic but point of clarification, I was taught when doing half circles, when approaching the centerline, across centerline there was one ‘straight’ stride’ as I changed bend. I hadn’t thought of it before but now wonder is this only correct until the horse (and rider) become able to change bend within the stride?
Thank you.
See my statement above. This is often given as instruction to more beginner riders who, when told to ride to/on the centerline for 1 stride, always over step and end up on the other side… so that the inside of the horse is on the track… not the center. It takes time for a rider to know where the body of the horse is in relation to the ring by feel, and not visual identification. It is, IMO, teachers being inaccurate in what they ask of their students. Again… not something you got away with in the days of the old military judges/instructors.
Much like driving… where too many drivers leave the back end of their car hanging out into another lane, because they have no concept of the space it inhabits and how it is positioned.
2 Likes
If one is riding correctly, on an obedient horse, that bend change can happen in one stride. I am constantly reminding students that dwelling on the bend change is as bad as the habit many riders have in dwelling at the letters when riding a 20 m circle. the outside of the horse touches, and continues on the same bend. In the bend change on the centerline whether a serpentine,or two attached circles, there is a bend change. No dwelling, and absolutely no figure 8.
1 Like
Agreed. That’s why I called it a moment - for a beginner, I tend to recommend 3 strides straight (and they’re lucky if they make 1), but no one advanced takes that long because it will mess up your geometry.
My point was more what digihorse said as well. A half 10m circle is by definition the same shape, just chopped in half. And HAS to straddle the centerline or geometry doesn’t work. Which tells you what a 10m circle is and where it should be.
@digihorse of course the 20 m circle is inside 20 meters. A dressage court measures 20 meters from rail to rail. The horse can’t go ON the 20 meter line with it’s spine or even its hoof, so what IS a 20 meter circle is the outside of the horse reach to the 20 meter line.
A 10 meter half circle (or full circle) that specifies that it goes from the wall to the centerline (or centerline to the wall) is therefor going to be a different size than a circle ridden INSIDE the centerline (a couple tests just specify a circle).
For example if you do a shoulder in down centerline, and then circle 10 meters at X, then half pass, your horse’s spine is going to be what you get to X, not your stirrup, correct? So that is obvious, but what if it is just a 10 meter circle at E, with no specification/need to get to X
(I am a provincially rated judge. The topic of dressage was covered in maybe 90 minutes. I am trying to educate myself further. Typically I judge 1st level and below)
1 Like
Why does it have to straddle the centerline in movements where the movement does not require getting to X? This is only in a couple tests, but for example, if you shoulder in to E, then 10 meter circle, and then travers, should the circle stay inside the centerline or should the horse’s spine reach X? The tests which require the horse to make it to the centerline for geometry, specify X as part of the movement, but a few do not.
So you think a 10m circle at E without specifying X is a different size than a circle which specifies X?
No, it shouldn’t be inside the centerline.
10m is at the centerline.
X is on the centerline.
Go to X. 
Anyway, I don’t understand why someone would want to take the inside as it will make the horse to re-enter on the track at a sharper angle and it will bend your horse too much for the travers after.
Check the rule book.
How much difference are we talking about here, in actual distance I mean?
Then how much difference are we talking about in the score…and does that vary by level?
Low level Minnow here, being glad to make a circle that is round, where the horse is correctly bent, traveling correctly etc etc…I’m aiming to touch but not cross the center line…
1 Like
Not enough for me to lose sleep over.
3 Likes
@CHT Do you ride dressage? Have you done tests up through the levels? I applaud your questions… however… 1. I believe you are overthinking/complicating something that is/has been very clear for many many years. 2. Again… the CL of the horse/spine is alway what is considered when talking about positioning on a track (straight/lateral)(a circle is considered a straight tracking movement)
As a young rider… I very clearly remember getting hit by those old military sticklers… and the early judges for not being on the centerline on a 10 meter circle but being short and inside it. Does that small difference matter? To me… and to many old timers who consider the precision of riding the test part of what dressage is about… yes. It does matter. It is part of riding a “perfect 10 meter circle”. The outside track is not the fence of the arena, but a half-horse width distance inside that rail (or a little more)
Now… do ideas change? Yes. Used to be that all movements were to be performed when the rider’s shoulder was at the letter. That is no longer true for all movements. For instance… a flying change on the diagonal is to be performed before the letter, even though the test directive is to perform the flying change at the end letter on the diagonal.
Argh. I completely get what you are saying, mathematically it does not add up, even if the difference isn’t noticeable to humans.
Worse, if you ride a 20m circle in a small arena touching the arena with the outside shoulder on 3 sides and x with the horse’s spine on one side, you’ve just ridden an oval.
2 Likes
But it is to super humans, judges…who?
I knew there was a reason why I never get a perfect circle in the small ring!
the big error on 20m cirle on the ends is that people tend to ride the corners after the start of the circle. Say at A for example, show the corner before but clearly define the aspect of the 20m circle after
there is a video out there that shows common circle error filmed from above
