I heard one of my independent WTC riders at the therapeutic riding center earnestly explaining to a new rider in her class that a 10m circle was when you did a circle left or right off the rail and “meet her” in the middle as I am often standing on the center line…
Actually… only if you position the points on the sides too close to the end. Visually, you do not ride a small arena the same… because you are missing R/S/V/P. I note many riders who have eggs horizontally across the ring between the side because the touch points on the side are too close to the ends. In a 60m court, the 20m circle at the end, goes to a point 10 meters from X, not a point directly between say R/S. It helps to know how far apart the letters are. :). They are (corner to corner) 6m, 12m, 12m, 12m, 12m, 6m In a 40m they are 6m, 14m, 14m, 6m. So a 20m circle does indeed go to X.
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@Gamma gets it, thanks! Although on a 20 meter circle the difference doesn’t matter as much as a 10 meter, but still a valid point! A 20 meter circle should fit inside a 20 meter box, but it doesn’t if you ride to X.
Am I overthinking it? I don’t think so.
So: what I have been told in lessons (by an FEI rider and EC judge) is that a 15 Meter circle ridden at A and C stays inside the 15 meter mark (so as if you were riding in an arena 15 meters wide). A 15 meter circle ridden off the long sides stays inside the 1/4 line (so again if you were riding inside an arena 15 meters wide). So why wouldn’t a 10 meter circle that is not specifically written as reaching X, be any different?
Apparently I need to ask a judge as there seems to some different opinions. I have read the rules and I do not see this question addressed, only the serpentines are really drawn out (and figure 8).
Those tests specify reaching X. All the movements that require reaching center line for symmetry specify X in the movement. My question is specifically the few tests that have a circle that does not specify reaching X.
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The rules have a diagram that shows the ideal 10 meter figure 8 which would be similar and there is a purposeful straight stride required.
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Again, why do you think that sometimes 10m is different than others?
I think it might be, which is why I am asking the question. Because if the circle at E (when not specifically directed to get to X) is with the horse’s spine to the centerline, then it will not be the same size as the circle at A or C. As the circles at A or C will either be inside the 1/4 lines or be on the 1/4 lines. Whereas if the circle at E (when not specifically directed to get to X) is inside the centerline, then it would be the same size as circle at A or C ridden inside the 1/4 lines.
Because of how other circle sizes are defined. The definition should be consistent for all circle sizes shouldn’t it?
10m circles are used for their importance to lateral work, and how they define a bend. They don’t change shape.
No they are NOT ridden inside the quarter lines. They are ridden ON the quarter lines. Why do I care? Because someone like you judging lower level riders will give them a lower score for doing the RIGHT thing… because you think it is too big. You are completely over complicating a simple thing.
Please see https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/F3p8pgrWgAo/dr-dressage-division and look at the images for the serpentines and circles. (pages 499-501) Please note: they clearly show the spine of the horse ON THE LINE! Note the 10meter circle? Note the circle crossing the line signifying that it is the spine that is the touch point not the outside of the horse? THIS has always… since 1971 for me, been how circles were to be done.
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Digi, I agree this is how the Figure 8 is ridden - and this is an illustration of THAT movement. However, I can tell you that I have had judges mark me down, and have scribed for judges that have commented on a 10 meter circle being too big because the horses’ outer body was how they defined the circle. So it IS an issue that is unclear - and the diagram doesn’t show the specific SINGLE 10 meter circle from the long side to the centerline. It shows the Figure 8.
I think this is a genuine area of confusion or inconsistency, even with judges. Yes, it is only a difference 12 inches or so, but it is worth discussion because it isn’t just CHT that is confused.
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There is a difference between discussing where a judge thinks the line is, and someone coming up with the idea that is not “10 meters” but 9 meters. And I would say… I’d like to be in a room with your judges against the old farts I showed under in the 70’s that said and marked the opposite and hear that discussion. Again. A frame of reference. And for what it is worth… I have always shown, up through FEI, under the idea that it was the horse’s spine that counted and never been marked down for a circle being too big except for a couple of 6m voltes. I’ve also scribed and don’t remember ever having a judge comment on a circle being to big when ridden spine on line. Too big when the inside stirrup was on the line… So… 2 different riders with history… and each with different experiences. And yes… its a matter of 12 inches… such a majik number :lol:
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I don’t know the type of judges you have scribed for or been judged by but it’s not been my experence at all for the past 30yrs.
There are many things I have heard judges fight about, correct geometry wasn’t part of it.
The rules need better clarity it seems. The rules define serpentines, and figure 8s with precision, but they do not define circles as well.
What I have been told: a circle is sized based on being able to fit just inside a square of the same diameter.
In some tests, the movement is specifically written to deviate from this precise size.
I shall get to the bottom of this because I want to be as well educated as I can be.
@digihorse this movement is not an issue in the lower level tests I have been judging. It is in very few tests. I am trying to get better to make sure I understand all the tests in the National levels. You seem angry that I am not just accepting your word, but I see no reason why your word is of higher value than the others participating in this discussion. It is also important to note, that the current tests are not that similar to the tests in the 70s or 80s.
As it seems there is no clear cut answer, I will be sending this question to various judges who may be able to give me a definitive answer, and I will be suggesting that EC include this in their rules.
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It’s 10m.
What I have been told: a circle is sized based on being able to fit just inside a square of the same diameter.
And if you’ve done good in geometry class, there are 4 points in your circle that are on each of the square sides.
In some tests, the movement is specifically written to deviate from this precise size.
Which test? Which movement. Be specific.
@digihorse this movement is not an issue in the lower level tests I have been judging. It is in very few tests. I am trying to get better to make sure I understand all the tests in the National levels.
But if you are confused about the 10m circle, we can assume you are also confused about the 20m circle as well.
To me, and I’m sorry to be mean, and I’m glad you are seeking help, you aren’t qualified enough to judge yet and should shadow more experienced judges.
It’s kind of shocking (the word is too harsh, please use a synonym of lower value) that you were given good enough scores at 2d level to go through the judging process. You must be riding the right way but maybe not understanding what you are doing exactly? Or you are always a little off in your geometry but get away because the rest of your ride is really good?
That’s what I believe.
You seem angry that I am not just accepting your word, but I see no reason why your word is of higher value than the others participating in this discussion. It is also important to note, that the current tests are not that similar to the tests in the 70s or 80s.
I doubt
@digihorse is angry at you. More angry at the system who failed you. This is not, to my most honest opinion, normal…
The tests are actually quite similar. Changes within the levels (exercices switched from one level to another), but that’s about it. The names changed here (Base 1, 2, 3 and Medium, in French) but I recall that most tests from the 80´s were similar.
As it seems there is no clear cut answer, I will be sending this question to various judges who may be able to give me a definitive answer, and I will be suggesting that EC include this in their rules.
It is in the rule (volte) and everything you need to know is on the test sheet.
But yes, do call and ask real judges.
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I’ve done a visual aid with a lot of exaggeration so it’s clear… the width of the line represents the width of the horse, the dark line represents the spine of the horse. Having trouble with attachments so if someone wants to repost these as proper attachments that would be fine.
And yes, the difference in real life with a real horse width would be probably not noticeable … But mathematically it certainly is there.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uL7kkxUxQx-RPj0ckkMZc-G8NDpqYnZ0/view?usp=drivesdk
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HXKTcgaXBdB2fzh4xPkxDVdmulEqv-5K/view?usp=drivesdk
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I understand CHT’s point.
Yes, a 10 meter circle is 10 meters…
I think the issue is more with (in)consistency between a 20 meter circle and a 10 meter circle.
If the distance from E to B is 20 meters, then a 20 meter circle, measured on the track of the horse’s hooves, is slightly less than 20 meters. Otherwise, you’d have to straddle the boards.
Because we like to keep all the feet inside the ring, a 20 meter circle is measured from the outside of the horse. The 20m circle fits inside a 20m square, which is partially defined by the boards. The 4 points are touched by the outside of the horse.
If a 10 meter circle is measured in the same way, it would put the outside of the horse touching centerline. The 10m square would include the outside board and X. The circle would fit inside that square, with points at E/B and X. But if ‘points’ are understood in the same way as they are for a 20m circle, the points are the outside of the horse, not it’s spine.
But that version of a 10m circle doesn’t work if you’re supposed to continue on down centerline; you won’t be on X, you’ll be touching it.
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@alibi_18 you are obviously missing my point. It’s ok,I will try to explain better.
If you make a 20 meter square, a 20 meter circle fits inside it. That is a 20 meter circle.
If you make a 15 meter square, a 15 meter circle fits inside it. That is a 15 meter circle. An exception to this is the WDAA level 1, test 1 test, where the 15 meter circle must reach the 1/4 line. So in that instance the 15 meter half circle would NOT fit into the 15 meter square, instead the horse would straddle the 15 meter mark. So the 15 meter half circle reaching the 1/4 line is slightly larger than a regular 15 meter circle, this is deviation of size written specifically in the test.
In most National tests, the 10 meter circle directive specifically mentions getting to X as being part of the shape/size. This is required for the geometry. These 10 meter circles will not fit into a 10 meter square. In a few of the tests though, the circle is at A, C, or is on the long side (but does not have a specific requirement to make to X), so my question is, should those circles fit into a 10 meter square, or should the ones on the long side straddle the centerline, and should the ones at A and C straddle the quarter-lines, or should they stay within the quarter-lines. These are different size circles.
The above diagrams were well done to demonstrate the difference, thank you!
Obviously it is a small point, but I was curious what peoples thoughts on this would be. I am surprised that this question has lead to the insults of my knowledge and ability to ride a test or do my job. It was meant to be a friendly discussion on a subject that is not touched by the rules.
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It is actually pretty noticeable from A if the horse reaches the centerline or not.
