Well, your drawing is wrong.
In a 20m x 40m (or 60m), the 20m is calculated outside the track. The rings sides are put outside the track, outside the 20m.
If you were to build a 10m x 10m arena, the centerline would be the track, and the little ring panels would be outside that track.
The little panels are not on the track but outside. The horse goes on the track, meaning it goes to X, on the centerline at 10m.
Maybe I should do a drawing too…
Not my drawing that is @Gamma’s drawing…
Me…heck I’m glad if I cam ride a circle rather than a squircle…
Sorry then! 
I’m not as good as @Gamma … But I made it ""wide’’ enough to represent a horse and the side panels.
Arena.pdf (180 KB)
Please do a drawing, it helps a lot. Are you saying that the distance between the rails should be more than 20m (measured parallel to the short side) so that the spine of the horse can go on a 20m circle? Because I can’t find any diagram showing that set up.
Btw, I agree that it’s obvious if you don’t get onto the centerline. I meant that the change in curvature is not that obvious, since a horse isn’t that wide, relative to the size of the circle… Although I do wonder what the combined driving folks do, since it’s got to be more of a problem for them.
It is not an exception at all… the 15m is ON the quarter line… and does fit in a 15m square…
You understand that between E and X, there is 10m. The quarter line is in the middle at 5m.
So doing your 15m circle at E, it brings you to the quarter line at 15m between X and B.
The above diagrams were well done to demonstrate the difference, thank you!
They are not good. The ""fence’’ is to be set outside the rail/track.
Obviously it is a small point, but I was curious what peoples thoughts on this would be. I am surprised that this question has lead to the insults of my knowledge and ability to ride a test or do my job. It was meant to be a friendly discussion on a subject that is not touched by the rules.
It is because you should have known this before starting to judge. It is well explained in the rules and the tests are clear. Or so they should.
I’m really not trying to be mean. I just don’t understand why this is so complicated for someone who works as a judge.
Sorry if I sound rude. It isn’t my goal at all.
Can you see it? It’s a PDF… I’m not on my own computer and it’s late…
I was typing while you were typing. (On my phone, so quite slow…but I’ve given up and pulled out the computer. I don’t know what I’ll tell my boyfriend if he wakes up, “You see, it’s like this–I was talking about how to measure a circle and…”)
Can you show me where it says how to set up the fence outside the track? I’m looking at page 130 in the 2018 FEI dressage rule book (the page with the diagram) and it looks to me like the distance between the rail and the center line should be equal to the distance between one quarter line and the other quarter line.
I did another picture…
Are you sure about that? I was scribing last year, and they were adjusting the ring at the last minute because of a TD request, and they were measuring 20 meters RAIL TO RAIL. Not 20 meters plus 2.5 feet. The average horse is about 2.5 feet wide, so you’d need to add 1/2 a horse wide to each side under your scenario. That isn’t how the ring is set up. There are lots of articles and videos out there on setting up a court, and none of them say to give an extra foot on each side.
Honestly, I think CHT has a point. And I HAVE seen judges address geometry. Heck, there is a score in the collectives for accuracy and geometry! Of course, the biggest issue I (personally) see with circles is more related to riding huge ovals, or riding into the corners on the short side, the dreaded 20ish meter blob…
But just the fact that there is this much DISCUSSION on it, shows that it is an issue. CHT shouldn’t be dismissed for lack of knowledge - this is truly a interesting topic, on something that SHOULD be cut and dry. And isn’t. I’ve always gone with the “horse straddles c-line”, but I think this is a genuinely valid question. And with a 20 meter circle (although I’ve never thought about it before), it is actually a bit smaller because the rail means the horse can’t “straddle” the points.
I agree, I alway appreciate discussion related to accuracy. I always took it as where the hooves were…so I like this discussion.
@CHT Why no… I am not “angry” at you. I am gobsmacked that something which to me, is simple, and has been simple for 40 years + is being so over complicated and has created so much misunderstanding.
I posted the rules, because on the same page as the figure of 8 is an arena with circle diagrams. To me, those are very clear and have been forever. Its also very clear (again to me) that if one knows the spacing between the letters, and one can calculate the quarter marks of a circle then it really isn’t rocket science to ride a precise circle within those points. The whole “But the arena …” idea is an over complication that needs to go bye bye… again in my opinion. No the arena is not larger than 20 meters on the short side (actually 66.6 feet) Perhaps it is the whole “inside a box” idea that makes weirdness. A circle is a circle to me… not an object inside a box.
We are getting into more silliness when we post pictures with “width” attached. Eh… why? Look at the feet? Where are the feet? What markers to the feet touch? The feet are generally not going to be more than 12" apart on a very wide horse.
Ok… so after doing a bit of hunting I found this great page:
http://www.horseoz.com/riding_articles/Riding_Circles/riding_circles.html
So… last idea to share. Judging. So… to me… the “rules” have been in place for years. How they are judged… is probably like many items in the rule book… subject to individual interpretation. We all know… and have very recently had big discussions about individual judges and their interpretation of rules. I believe that most judges follow the intent of the rules if not the letter. So that if the rider hits a mark that is 12" inside the exact point of X on their 10 meter circle… the judge is going to say. “Fine” Good circle (all other markers being correct as well) because the intent has been fulfilled. Now if the rider goes 12" over that centerline… then the judge should rightfully say… “eh… sorry… but you were a bit large there”. How much they get dinged in the score is up to the judge. Why does that distance matter? Because the bend and balance required for the circle that came a little short… will the same as the test prescribed circle. The circle which is larger… even by that little bit… allows for a little less bend… and allows the horse to keep his balance more easily. Its about 3 stride/steps longer in distance around that circle. A good rider… may cheat the specification on a day when his horse is having issues… to allow the horse to be more fluid… and hope the judge is kind in the scoring… or pressure the horse into an unbalanced response. This is ring craft. And this is riding another living creature and knowing there is another day for the 8 and taking a reduction if the judge sees fit.
Well I wrote a nice long thought out post with a link to a great site with diagrams and it hit the unapproved crap. Typical. No time to redo… maybe later.:mad:
http://www.horseoz.com/riding_articles/Riding_Circles/riding_circles.html
@alibi_18 thank you for clarifying your point/view. You mention that this is explained in the rules, but neither I, nor anyone else participating in this discussion seems to see it. Can you please send me the link or chapter?
A dressage ring however, ,is set 20 meters wide. The track is not 20 meters wide, the rail is. So a 20 meter circle fits INSIDE that 20 meter diameter. The 10 meter radius would be from the center to the rail,( and ideally the outside of the horse/riders stirrup, who one hopes is near the rail at the points where the circle touches the track).
Regarding 15 meter circles: the 1/4 line is actually 15 meters from one side, and 5 meters from the other. Riding a 15 meter circle is the same as riding in a space 15 meters wide, so imagine the little white fence is on the 15 meter mark. To ride the 15 meter circle you stay just inside the imaginary white rail (to be perfect). The 7.5 meter radius would be from the center of the circle to the outside of the horse for the entire circle and you stay inside the 1/4 line.
In the test that requires you to get to the 1/4 line for the leg yield you have to ride a slightly bigger half circle so your horses spine gets to the 1/4 line. If a rider rides a true half 15 meter circle and ends up slightly inside the 1/4 line it increases the degree of difficulty, so they can still get a very good score if done well, but not a 10. (If they make the half circle bigger than the quarter line however, then they make both movements easier, and so won’t score as well even if done well).
@Gamma your new picture shows how much bigger the A & C circles would be if you think the horse’s spine gets to the 1/4 line rather than staying inside. it makes a sizable difference. Thank you for your effort and artistry in helping me explain my thoughts!
I didn’t know a discussion on circles would be so exciting…only dressage riders could get this excited about circles!
Long time lurker here, driven to posting - finally! - by this thread.
I agree with the OP that it isn’t going to be a mathematically perfect circle if you go to the centre line, but the same thing is technically true of any shape that starts on the outside track and has a specific measurement attached: either you shrink all the dimensions to keep the shape (e.g. a 20m circle at B would need a diameter of about 19m along the centre line - measured to the spine - to match the actual diameter B-E of the circle you’re riding) or your shape is slightly squashed.
But in reality, we take the spine as the centre, and work to the centre line. It fits logically with other movements, and it looks smarter to an observer because the human eye seeks patterns. The distortion will be so small that it is in any case unnoticeable without overhead cameras to spot it.
Why asking if you are so sure of your theory?
Check the FEI rules (art. 429 - 2 p.51) where it is said that the measure is « the interior of the enclosure ».
Anyway. I really don’t get all this questionning since
the consensus amongst all (or most) is that the :
ring is said to be 20 x 60
centerline is said to be at 10m, in the middle of the ring
quarter lines are said to be at 5m on each sides
A 10m circle at B goes to X
A 15m circle at B goes to the opposite quarter line
No judge will run in the middle of the ring with a measuring tape, but movements are clear on the test sheet. They go to the centerline and quarter lines.
ETA : How are you going to differenciate your 10m from an 8 meter volte?
Have a great one!
As an ex-organizer who set way too many dressage courts, I agree with alibi. I set a string line at 20 x 60 then set the inside edge of the rail at or millimeters outside that string. Many TDs checked and gave it the okay.
As for the “10-meter circle,” I personally think it’s not a precise geometric description but rather “shorthand” for “circle between track and centerline.” And personally, I think it’s hoof prints not ribcage.
There you have my two cents, not worth that much, I’m sure.
applaud!!! :yes:
Yes but “It’s the hoof prints” where? Fully inside the centerline? Or, straddling the centerline?
That is the question, here. Both options leave hoof prints. But one option is going to leave hoof prints describing a very slight oval and not a perfect circle.
@Huntin’ Pony OK, but do you think my pictures accurately show dressage arenas or not? @alibi_18 says they don’t, so I’m trying to figure out what dimensions would be different.
The diagram for the figure 8 cannot the extrapolated to apply to the 10 meter circle…unless you are saying that the circle should have a straight stride at center line? Obviously that is not the case.
@digihorse Your new diagram/link was useful though, so thanks for sharing! In your post #50 I took you to mean you thought 10 meter circles should all reach to the centerline with the center of the horse, but that diagram shows them inside 10 meters (to be consistent with the other circle sizes)
…
I have no idea why we are debating arena size…that was never in question. (It was actually @alibi_18 that implied the arena was set larger than 20 meters which started that debate, but I think it was just awkward wording, in that the arena is measured from inside edge to inside edge)
From the variety of responses it seems that this is a grey area (affecting tests such as Second level test 1 & Second level test 3). It is NOT covered in the rules, and because MOST 10 meter circles are written to cross onto the centerline, whereas all other circles are to be ridden INSIDE the measurement, it makes it a little confusing. It should NOT be up to judge’s interpretation. How is that fair to competitors? It seems from posts on this topic, riders have gotten conflicting scores/comments.
Obviously not a big deal in the overall scheme.
Hoof prints straddling. :lol: Or at least touching. A horse’s foot prints in a trot lets say will be about 8" wide. (between the footprints) Some less some more. The rider should “feel” that the feet have graced the centerline.
You can not think of circles inside of boxes. They are not inside of boxes. They are circles and as such their circumference does not fall inside the box, but intersects the lines of the box at 4 locations. To have a 10 meter circle which fit inside a box, your box would need to be larger than 10 meters. This is the flaw in the box argument.
Further… going back to the rules: Again… please view the page with the figure of 8. At the bottom of THAT page is a diagram of an 8, 10 and 20 meter circle. The 10 meter circle clearly shows that the outside of the circle crosses the centerline… I interpret that to mean that the outside of the body of the horse may fall over the centerline.
Judging the circles: I believe that judges mostly judge by the rulebook… with interpretation. Even then… they generally judge by the intent of the rules. A for instance of this in regards to a circle:
Each circle of a size has a certain number of strides for each horse to cover the circumference of that circle.
When the circle is smaller… the number of strides/steps is decreased, and the level of effort to the horse is increased, as it requires greater balance and perhaps collection to perform the smaller circle. A circle even a little larger may allow the horse to evade the intent of the movement, by decreasing the effort required. Now a rider may purposely ride a circle a little large if his horse is struggling at that moment as a kindness and to preserve balance. A judge would rightly score this lower, understanding that the intent/difficulty of the movement was not performed. However… if a rider rides a circle a little smaller that prescribed, they have actually increased the effort required from the intent/diffculty of that movement. So now the judge could ding them for being small… or give a score reflective of the fact that the rider/horse met the requirement for balance and bend on the circle.
It is the above example that makes the job of judging more than just tracking the “size” of the circle. Hope that makes sense.
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