Circle detail question...how big is a 10 meter circle.

Gamma -

I think digihorse’s last post (#80) hits most of the important points, especially the fact of a circle being tangent to the “box” at exactly four points (one on each side).

Just a few additional observations -

The border fence of the arena is not of negligible width - it depends on the type of railing used, but if the innermost support of the railing is outside the track then the peak of the railing often is further out than that. The visual impact of the railing affects how close the horse places its feet, among many other things.

Your shaded area bordering the “spine line” of the horse may be too wide to represent a normal horse. How far is it really from the outside of the outside hoof print to the “shadow” of the horse’s rib cage? I think on the scale you’re using that the shading suggests a very wide horse.

All-in-all, I think we’ve demolished this topic.

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I believe everyone understood that the shaded area that represented the width of the horse in the diagrams was exaggerated. Exaggeration helped make the point, oval versus perfect circle.

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Are you saying the figure 8 is not two circles of equal sizes? Read the rules.

You know that when you do a change of direction, you need to put your horse straight for a moment? And what better place to do so on the center line! (which is a straight line!)

If there was no change of direction, you would just keep on circling on the same circle… going to the middle of the ring but with the appropriate bend…
How is that not clear is beyond everything I could say

Your interpretation of the rule book, the diagrams and the test sheets is just complicated for nothing.

Please, do as you said and seek help from trainers and judges. I don’t understand how you’ve made it so far without understanding this basic movement and ring geometry.

Sorry for being blunt. That will be my last comment on the subject.

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Although they were both circles weren’t they? One was just tighter/smaller radius. One stayed inside the centerline, and one went spine to the centerline.

I would argue that this thread is going down as the most pedantic discussion ever in the history of COTH discussions.

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It is a circular argument…

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Or possibly a touch oval…

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With many touch points

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Touche!

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I see you’re all coming aRound to my point of view.

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Maybe next we could discuss the quantity of angels dancing on the head of a pin…

How you define ‘on’ one foot, both feet, rib cages inside the head…lets not even figure in the wings…need more precision for this discussion.

This is a super interesting discussion for a lot of reasons, and I think what I’m going to come back to is that, the rule book says things that are simply not true.

As an example, canter pirouettes are not physically done the way they have been described for eternity - ie with photographic evidence we know that even the best ones will have two hind feet on the ground and two front feet off the ground during the movement. You have to kind of take it in spirit, which is that it should ‘feel’ like a three beat canter when you watch it at live speed even if it’s not when measured at individual images of 1/30 of a second.

So I think the truth is:

  • a 20 m circle is ridden with the spine of the horse coming over X, but with the outer hoofprints tracking at around 19.7 m. The spine cannot do a 20 m circle without a hoof leaving the arena resulting in elimination. The end effect is slightly elliptical but no one will see it.

  • a 10 meter circle is done with the interior points based on the spine and the rail at the rail. Thus, the outer hoofprints slightly exceed 10 m, but the spine is exactly 10 m.

  • in general, a half circle of any type puts you on the relevant line with the spine down the center of that line. So a 20 m half circle puts you on the track if done at the end of the ring, but puts you on to X if begun in a short arena from A or C. A 10 m half circle from the track goes to the centerline, and vice versa. A 15 m half circle goes from the track to the quarterline.

You know these things are true because of the 20 m figure 8 and serpentines, and the 10 m figure 8 and serpentines.

That this means the math isn’t quite right is okay, because horse people aren’t math people; we’re more science people. In this case, the numbers are labels rather than measurements. Saying 19.7m circles is clumsy and so we are rounding to the nearest meter. And for horses, that’s perfectly fine, because the judges don’t have the tools to measure to the decimeter nor is that level of precision really essential to the quality of the movement.

I applaud the OP for being willing to stand up and ask this question.

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It would be more appropriate to discuss how many Warmbloods can piaffe on the head of a pin would it not?

Knife-withered or mutton?

I thought I would bring this discussion up with my coach the other day, seeing as we were working on 10m circles…seemed appropriate…

Was told

“Stop overthinking it, just try and make the bloody things round, and STOP putting a foot over the center line”

:lol::lol::lol:

For my lowly level she is right, a 10m circle, try and make it visibly round, and as near 10m as you can…

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You’re overthinking it.

You bet. As is the OP. But that’s okay, I love to overthink things and then just breathe and go on with my life. I generally get a better understanding out of it at the end of the day.

Indeed, that’s just the conclusion that I came to: we don’t measure the circle with enough precision in the way the OP was thinking, or even any of the people who dismissed her concerns were.

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Hate to revisit the circular discussion, but have any of you seen the diagram going about FB with circles - 10, 15, and 20 meters? It brought up some discussion on one of the pages I’m on, and several FEI judges put in their 2 cents - and they said the OUTSIDE of the horse defines the circle - not the center of the horse, but the OUTSIDE. So I thought that was interesting and noteworthy…

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It’s clear that has to be the case because only the outside of the horse can touch the outside of the circle on the rail side (or rail touch-point) of whatever circle we are describing. On the inside of the area, however, the line is imaginary and we can center our horses and ourselves right over the touch point or line. Many posters have noticed, and noted, that the rail’s stationary presence forces the circle to be entirely inside of it. Poltroon in particular articulated the incongruity very well.

Yet, several posters have made clear that their trainers ALWAYS prescribed putting the CENTER of the horse over the centerline or quarterline. The consensus there seems to be that anyone who notices that putting the CENTER of the horse over the line is possible at the imaginary touchpoint but physically impossible at the rail touchpoint is overthinking. “Just do it.” “Tradition.” “Cavalry.”

I agree that it’s interesting and noteworthy that some living judges now expect it in one place and others in another.

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