Claimers

[eponina]

I think Lori suggested the “claiming discussion” under “she’s going to auction” deserved it’s own thread - I second the idea.

So, are claiming races necessary for the sport or bad incentive to new ownership? Do you run your horses in claimers? Ever had one claimed or claimed one? Ever regret losing one and not been able to get it back? Do you know when your horse is being claimed (ie before the race, you get some hint that someone is interested), and if so, have you scratched?

I’m interested in hearing different prospectives (as my parents have numerous claimers, including one I would like to have when he retires and am afraid will be claimed before that can happen!)

[DickHertz]

It’s necessary, but unfortunately because of slots, cheap and sore horses who should be in a pasture are run to death because the pots are so good the idea of “just one more race” is implemented more than it should be.

[Laurierace]

I actually like claiming. It has its pros and cons of course but overall I think it is good for the game. In fact, its a big part of what makes it a game.
I starting out by claiming a horse with the $2500 we got back from our income tax return. I won three in a row on the raise. I still have the win picture where everyone including the jockey was crying because she got claimed. Two weeks later she was dead otherwise I would have loved to claim her back.
I claimed Sylvester back four times, each time for less money. The last time I claimed him was strictly for the purpose of retiring him as each time I got him back he was chock full of equipoise.
My first foal, my pride and joy ran for a tag ONCE and of course got claimed. I was absolutely heartbroken. I remember telling my vet who was also the butcher who claimed her’s vet that if she ended up at New Holland his client would be the one getting a bolt to the forehead. I got her back two weeks later thank God for the same tag.
I have had tons of horses get claimed from me. To date, no one has ever improved one of them, but its bound to happen sooner or later.

[Calamber]

Laurie, and you like claiming why? Not too clear how it makes it a better “game”, if 1) someone killed a horse that you lost two weeks prior (or are you saying she would have died with you?? 2) your horse you liked so much got stuck full of equipoise 3) you had to threaten someone’s life to get your point across about not wanting your horse sent to slaughter (not sure why that was possible if the horse was competitive). He was running in a claiming race, um, if you run it in a claiming race is it not possible that can happen? Not sure the rationale here but in actuality, I do not see claiming as the problem but really running them when there they are “out of gas” thus the use of “helpers”; there are many other problems with racing that have been discussed ad nauseum, not really the place to rehash those reasons.

[Pat_Ness]

There needs to be some other options to add to the conditions book so those of us that would like to race and keep our horses - will stay with it. Just get a sprint and a route on the card that caters to the lower end and is an allowance or optional or ??? For me I am talking about Canterbury Park, not Churchill Downs or Keeneland.

I am a middle income person and for some reason that I do not even understand, I have taken an interest in racing. I have had horses since 1971, and racing was not a childhood fancy, in fact I despised it about 10 years ago. I do not know why I am drawn to it now, but claiming races could easily be one of the reasons I leave it.

I think racing needs people like this, especially in these times.

[Las_Olas]

Pat, wouldn’t that be a starter allowance?

Wow, Laurierace, you’ve never had one improve after it was claimed? Either you are very good, know where to place them, or both. But either way, that’s quite impressive.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

One of the simplest alternatives is handicap races. You can have handicap races for everything from a $4k low end purse (like the whole cards run today at Wolverhampton and Lingfield, all cheap horses running for small purses) up to a $5m purse (the biggest race in Australia, the Melbourne Cup, is a handicap).
Here’s how it works in Europe. Every horse that races is assigned an official handicap rating by the a racing official (whose name, appropriately enough, is called the “Official Handicapper”). As a horse wins or runs well, and depending on the company he is running against, his rating goes up. Likewise it comes down when he runs down the field. That rating will range from in the 40s for the bottom of the barrel level horses, up to 120s, even higher, for top horses. For example, the top 3yo last year, the Derby winner New Approach, had an official rating of 125. If, in the unlikely event, that Sheihk Mo and Princess Haya decided to enter him in a Wed afternoon handicap at Wolverhampton for $5k where the likely runners would be running off handicap marks of 40-50, the he would have to concede 70-80lbs to those horses.
Obviously that is an unlikely scenario, but it illustrates what the handicap ratings mean. If the horses in the race are similar in ability then the weight spread will often be only a matter of a few pounds. Or you could a race like the 5th race tomorrow at Lingfield, a Class 6 race (just one level above the bottom level, Class 7), over 2miles on the Polytrack for a purse of around $5.5k, where the top weighted horse is rated at 64 and is carrying 140lbs and the bottom weighted horse is running of a rating of 45, and is carrying 121lbs. There is a 19 point difference in rating and hence a 19lb weight differential.

I’m not saying that handicapping is without it’s problems, esp in the US with it’s many different racing jurisdictions, but it works pretty well in most places.

[Laurierace]

I never said it was easy on the heart, but it is kind of fun. I never would have been able to get involved otherwise. It was a cheap way to get involved with a horse that was ready to run back days later. I couldn’t have bought a horse at a sale and put 6 months of training into it, I just didn’t have that kind of money then.
And no, I have never had a horse improved off of me, feel free to check the records.

[Las_Olas]

Oh, I believe you, wasn’t being sarcastic. I really mean that is quite an accomplishment. People generally don’t realize how hard it is to train a horse, and apparently you have done well for yourself starting the way you did. I know quite a few KY trainers that have done less with better stock and get all of the kudos.

[Pat_Ness]

Starter Allowance would work, except aren’t there some kind of claiming conditions to be in that?

I would be all for races where there is an auction after the race as long as I can bid back on my own horse. Then I would have a chance to put my money where my mouth is.

I would like to know how many people on this board would be more interested in owning a race horse if you knew you did not have to put them in claiming races, but could still run them where they can run their best?

[Las_Olas]

I would, definitely. But, I tend to run mine in KY, so when they don’t do well, we just go out of state. Some of those AOC in KY are really tough.

[witherbee]

We’ve had a few claimed off of us and one we claimed right back. He just was not doing well under the new trainer (horse was quirky and we could see that he was fretting at the other barn (his stall was in full view from our barn). We claimed him out of a winning effort and sold him as a riding horse to prevent him from being claimed again. Sadly, he got injured at that person’s farm a few months later and she re-sold him to someone who was not ready for an OTTB (or any TB IMO) and we had to swoop in and rescue him again. He’s now happy and doing well at a friend’s place.

I have mixed feelings about Claiming races. I like to be able to claim, but hate having mine claimed lol! I would like to see more Handicap race options in the lower ranks.

[Gestalt]

I wouldn’t put my horses into any sport or competition where they could be taken from me. I only compete my horses for the joy of watching them, not for the “thrill” of the game. They aren’t a game to me, they’re part of my family.

[jenm]

@witherbee;3809154

We’ve had a few claimed off of us and one we claimed right back. He just was not doing well under the new trainer (horse was quirky and we could see that he was fretting at the other barn (his stall was in full view from our barn). We claimed him out of a winning effort and sold him as a riding horse to prevent him from being claimed again. Sadly, he got injured at that person’s farm a few months later and she re-sold him to someone who was not ready for an OTTB (or any TB IMO) and we had to swoop in and rescue him again. He’s now happy and doing well at a friend’s place.

You are a class act. What a magnificent example you set. :yes:

[On_the_Farm]

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;3807914]
One of the simplest alternatives is handicap races. You can have handicap races for everything from a $4k low end purse (like the whole cards run today at Wolverhampton and Lingfield, all cheap horses running for small purses) up to a $5m purse (the biggest race in Australia, the Melbourne Cup, is a handicap).
Here’s how it works in Europe. Every horse that races is assigned an official handicap rating by the a racing official (whose name, appropriately enough, is called the “Official Handicapper”). As a horse wins or runs well, and depending on the company he is running against, his rating goes up. Likewise it comes down when he runs down the field. That rating will range from in the 40s for the bottom of the barrel level horses, up to 120s, even higher, for top horses. For example, the top 3yo last year, the Derby winner New Approach, had an official rating of 125. If, in the unlikely event, that Sheihk Mo and Princess Haya decided to enter him in a Wed afternoon handicap at Wolverhampton for $5k where the likely runners would be running off handicap marks of 40-50, the he would have to concede 70-80lbs to those horses.
Obviously that is an unlikely scenario, but it illustrates what the handicap ratings mean. If the horses in the race are similar in ability then the weight spread will often be only a matter of a few pounds. Or you could a race like the 5th race tomorrow at Lingfield, a Class 6 race (just one level above the bottom level, Class 7), over 2miles on the Polytrack for a purse of around $5.5k, where the top weighted horse is rated at 64 and is carrying 140lbs and the bottom weighted horse is running of a rating of 45, and is carrying 121lbs. There is a 19 point difference in rating and hence a 19lb weight differential.

I’m not saying that handicapping is without it’s problems, esp in the US with it’s many different racing jurisdictions, but it works pretty well in most places.[/QUOTE]

Again, this would easily open up alot of integrity issues in the same manner as a previous idea in this thread. Imagine the outcry from the wagering public (the people who ultimately pay the bills in this industry) if a horse were to get in light after going “off form” for a few races and then runs a hole in the wind at a big price. I can’t remember if the industry term for this sort of manipulation is called “larceny” or a “betting coup,” but at least the claiming system provides some protection from, or penalty for, such actions.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

[QUOTE=On the Farm;3809874]
Again, this would easily open up alot of integrity issues in the same manner as a previous idea in this thread. Imagine the outcry from the wagering public (the people who ultimately pay the bills in this industry) if a horse were to get in light after going “off form” for a few races and then runs a hole in the wind at a big price. I can’t remember if the industry term for this sort of manipulation is called “larceny” or a “betting coup,” but at least the claiming system provides some protection from, or penalty for, such actions.[/QUOTE]

Ooh, sarcasm.
I would think the threat of losing your lisence would outweigh the threat of losing your horse to a claim.
And as I’m sure you know it ain’t like it doesn’t happen in claiming races either.

[Barnfairy]

'Love the horses, hate the system, strictly from a welfare perspective. It wouldn’t be so bad if there existed a sure-fire way to eliminate the sheisters and the butchers from the game leaving only true horsemen.

It promotes dope, drop & dump practices – or at least does nothing to discourage it. 'Too easy for horses to fall through the cracks.

I don’t know the solution, but I do like the thought of lower level handicap races.

Sadly the “threat of losing your lisence” does nothing to stop some people from cheating anyway, regardless of level.

[summerhorse]

I would never run my horse in a claimer. If he had nowhere to compete I’d take him home and give him a new career and since I’m sure my finances will always be limited to one at a time (esp. if racing!!) then that may be the exit of one more owner at least for a few years. I’m not saying they have to dump ALL claimers (although I would prefer it) but they need to make more optional claimers, more handicaps, more just plain races so horses can compete with their like without risking being lost.

Oh you can always claim him back. Well that might be weeks or months before you can do that and what happens in the meantime? Maybe your horse gets injured and run into the ground, maybe your hand raised, drug free horse gets shot up with this that and the other because he’s sore now that he has a farrier that wasn’t as good as yours. The possibilities are endless. And maybe he’s dead before you can try and claim him back.

Or maybe he was claimed for someone else at another track and is gone before he races back (after sitting out his “sentence”).

There are probably a lot of horse loving people at all levels who’d like to try racing but they are not going to risk their horses like that. And treating horses as disposable units is very bad for the horses. The care can be substandard with that kind of attitude or worse.

There are many ways of rating horses depending on the time and their past performanes. Times, grades, weights, speed figures, etc etc.

[SleepyFox]

Huh. From what I’m reading there is a tremendous amount of misunderstanding about racing on this board. The claiming system does not foster mistreatment or a sense of disposable horses. People are either going to care for their horses well or they aren’t - whether they race for a tag has nothing to do with it. Look more closely at the results - how often do horses really get claimed? The majority of claimers run their entire career without ever being claimed. When you run a horse for a tag, you don’t do anything differently and you generally expect to pick him up after the race. If someone is going to run a horse that doesn’t need to be run, they’re going to do it regardless of whether he’s in a claimer or a handicap or whatever. I think some of you are putting the cart before the horse. I think what you’re seeing is the people who are substandard horsemen only deal in claimers because those are the best horses they can get and if they had a stakes horse they would still treat it the same way.

So, are claiming races necessary for the sport or bad incentive to new ownership?
I love the claiming game! But, I see Pat’s point and agree with her that another option (in addition to claimers) is a good idea - just from the standpoint of encouraging new owners. Because I do know a lot of people who are concerned about their horse getting claimed.

The difficulty would be to restrict the races so that you wouldn’t get higher class horses dropping into a race that has $5k horses running without a tag. Starter allowances achieve that by requiring the horses to have started for a specific tag w/in a year. Maybe they could write something for horses that have never started for a tag and never started for more than X allowance price.

Do you run your horses in claimers?
Absolutely.

Ever had one claimed or claimed one?
Absolutely.

Ever regret losing one and not been able to get it back?
Nope. It’s part of the game. When you run a horse for a tag you know you may lose it and you factor that into your decision. It’s not like they just snatch the horse and run - you can say goodbye and you can absolutely talk to the people that took your horse and if you want him back if he gets hurt you can let them know - most people are thrilled to have that option out there. We were at the track the other night and the guy we took one of off several months ago came up and talked to us for a long time. And then we ran into the guy who’d had the horse before him - everyone kind of knows who has what horses and it’s not that hard to follow them.

Do you know when your horse is being claimed (ie before the race, you get some hint that someone is interested), and if so, have you scratched?
You never know for sure. But, you know when a horse is attractive and when it’s not. Sometimes you get surprised (both ways), but you generally have an idea. Sometimes there’s talk - you may hear someone is going to take it and if they are a friend they’ll generally let you know. I’ve got one we’ll run in a couple of weeks that I know some people are looking at and is coming out of a big race, so I won’t be shocked if he gets claimed (if he does, I’ll give him a hug and a kiss and wish the new people good luck with him). But, I’ve also had a claim slip filled out and ready to drop and backed out at the last moment, so you just never know.

[rcloisonne]

I know I’m going to get flamed as ignorant by this question but why can’t the public claim a race horse?

There was this little claimer at Suffolk up for sale (by trainer) on the CANTER NE site in the fall of 07 as, “Does Ok here but just not fast enough for Florida”. For some unknown reason, I fell in love with the CANTER pic of this “little” (15.2) 4yo black TB mare but hesitated for a couple of weeks as 1.) I’ve never owned any TB, never mind a current race horse and 2.) from reading here on COTH, her asking price of $3,999 was ridiculous (although 4K does seem like an unreasonable price for a beautiful, young, sound horse to me).

I eventually decided to go for it. Found a wonderful situation for her as well as a trainer with experience with recent OTTBs. However, by that time (a few weeks later), she’d been taken down from the CANTER site as she had won a race (3 wins previous to this). The wonderful folks at CANTER told me to sign up for the free race notification (Equibase) to keep an eye on her which I did. She was claimed in her next race then claimed back by the original owners in the race after that but with a different trainer.

After a one race stop in NY (Fingerlakes) where she finished 7th, she was shipped to Florida that year (07-08) and didn’t do better than third in four outings. She was shipped back to Suffolk in May 08 and I was notified of her first race on June 1st (a 4K claimer). I was all set to buy her for that price but was informed the “public” can’t claim the horses?

I did drive up to Suffolk to see her for the first time in “person” for that race (also the first time I’ve seen live racing). Unfortunately for me she won that one. She raced again on 6/15, which I also saw, this time in better company and at a longer distance than her other races (1 mile) and she won that one by 5 lengths! :eek:

She hasn’t raced since. I did speak with the trainer (end of July, I think) asking (very nicely) why she hadn’t raced again and he said “What do you want? She won her last two!” and “there is absolutely nothing wrong with her, she’s just resting up on the farm” after I asked if she’d been injured. I next asked the CANTER people inquire directly to the owners in Aug but they have no interest in selling???

Sorry for the novel.