Claimers

[Linny]

The debate would rage for ever about who should handicap the horses and how often changes should be made etc. Each track has a racing secretary and morning line odds maker but neither are likely to be horsemen and since applying ratings to horses has never been done in the US, I can see alot of trouble.
I cannot imagine (say) Rick Dutrow or similar trainers being happy to be told that their horse rates a 90 and thus must compete at a certain level, especially if the guy in question has never so much as petted a horse! . Alot of these guys are buying and dropping stock to win. It also means that moving a horse an owner no longer wants is a problem. Alot of trainers/owners deal in certain types of horses. In NY, Nick Zito and Bob LaPenta focus primarily on stakes races. If a 3yo goes through the early season events and proves unworthy of stakes racing, they are usually dropped in for a tag at belmont in July and are quickly snapped up by someone who deals in lesser stock. “One man’s floor is another man’s ceiling” as the theory goes. This system allows LaPenta to move out horses to make room for his new crop of young prospects.
Without a claiming system, these guys (and others who want to move horses) are stuck with what they have. If an owner is stuck paying bills on non productive horses, he has no money to invest in more horses and no place to put the new ones. Unless they suddenly institute frequent auctions to premit the transfer of horses it creates a backlog.

I know that the hunter analogy is flawed because hunters are subjective, but at least in theory an AA hunter kicks ass in C shows, each time. Similarly, even a G1 stakes horse could stumble at the gate or lose his rider and thus lose a cheap claiming race. How about we use a GP jumper dropping into local puddle jumpers instead?

[Drvmb1ggl3]

I’m surprised at the complete lack of knowledge of what the official handicapper is and what his job entails, esp from people who work in the racing industry, albeit maybe not internationally, but who I thought at least at some exposure to racing worldwide.

The job of the Official Handicapper (sometimes called Senior Handicapper) is a very high profile job. Just about every racing juridiction outside of NA has one. He has a team of handicappers that work under him. Between then they watch every race ever run, and not just in their own juridiction but they watch racing form other juridictions too to help them establish formlines. They don’t just watch races, they analyse them to a tee. They break down the races, and each horse in the race, to determine where horses fall, whether they are progressing, regressing or remaining flat. They use formulas that have been fine tuned for the last 200-300 years to convert lengths into weight that also include other factors like distance of race, age etc. They basically eat, sleep and drink races. That is their job, and it is a high profile one as they have every trainer, owner, bettor and racing fan looking over their shoulder.
It is not some guy who has never petted a horse who’s pulling ratings out of his ass.

As to how often a horse’s rating changes, it is updated after every time the horse runs, as it’s all based on what they accomplish on the track. It will either go up, down or stay the same.

If Rick Dutrow, or any trainer, didn’t like the handicap mark applied to their horse, then they can enter the horse in claiming races and establish their own value, Once again, no one (i.e NOBODY, NOT ANY ONE PERSON) is saying that claiming races should be replaced wholesale by handicaps, just that it would be nice if their were other options, of which handicaps seems to be the most logical way to ensure parity.
It is not black/white, either/or, seems to me like there is plenty of room for both.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;3813765]
If Rick Dutrow, or any trainer, didn’t like the handicap mark applied to their horse, then they can enter the horse in claiming races and establish their own value, Once again, no one (i.e NOBODY, NOT ANY ONE PERSON) is saying that claiming races should be replaced wholesale by handicaps, just that it would be nice if their were other options, of which handicaps seems to be the most logical way to ensure parity.
It is not black/white, either/or, seems to me like there is plenty of room for both.[/QUOTE]

:yes: If I could afford to own a stable of twenty horses or more and treat it solely as a business (not a profitable one but a business) then maybe I wouldn’t care if I had a horse who was best in for a $5k tag and sold that way. If someone is comfortable running their horses like that, fine. If I’m a one-horse stable where we buy one animal and want to just enjoy watching him run at whatever level he’s good at, I don’t want to suddenly have to buy another horse or hope that he runs again when I’m in the right place and time to claim him back hopefully in the same condition I lost him at. Right now in US racing there basically isn’t an option for the latter owner unless they’re either willing to run their horse against better animals and watch him be outclassed, or are wealthy enough to only buy and attempt to campaign a top-level animal.

NOBODY is saying they want to put trainers out of business or ban all claiming races everywhere. They are saying that there should be options besides claiming or stakes with no middle ground.

[Pat_Ness]

Sleepy Fox, I like the idea of getting a group together with ideas. The most that can happen is that they don’t want to hear what our group has to say, but we would be no further behind.

I would like to check into the auction style racing. Again, I would at least have the option of buying my own horse back. Can anyone point me to a place online that shows condition books with these auction type races? I would really appreciate it!

Thanks.

[Las_Olas]

[QUOTE=SleepyFox;3813547]
I apologize for not being clear. What I meant was that a group of like-minded owners will have more voice than a single person when it comes to lobbying for a particular type of race. If you can go to the secretary and say “if you write this race, we’ll fill it” it’s going to be a lot harder to say no. TOBA is great and all, but they probably aren’t the vehicle for getting a particular race carded at one track.

Why is the idea not feasible? I’m not saying it’s perfect, but it’s better than just griping about the lack of options beyond claimers. If a group went to most secretaries with a concrete proposal for a race that they knew they had enough horses to at least make it go and said “hey, will you give us a chance and at least put it on the overnights” I think they would at the very least be heard and given some feedback.

Anyway, it’s just a thought. I play the claiming game and love it, so I’m not worried about it for me. But, if other owners see claiming races as an issue they’d like other options for, I think it’s worth putting some thought behind.[/QUOTE]

I do see your point, but it would really have to be one switched on group to get the timing right. They used to write a lot of handicap and other types of races. They don’t anymore because they weren’t able to fill them. You’re right, though. Racing Secretaries love to write races that fill and if they can fill it, they’ll write it.

[Linny]

I have a reasonable idea of how the handicap works. I do know that the handicappers in most European and Asian jurisdictions are very well versed in the current form of all the horses they rate. I have spoken to many and they have a rare combinations of a horseman’s eye and a bettors instinct. That said, I don’t know a racing secretary or oddsmaker in the US that I think has the skillset. Plus, in this era, tracks are laying off people, not hiring folks with a rare skill.
Also, other jurisdictions require far more transparency from trainers about intent. In Hong Kong and Japan for example, if a horse who normally races near the pace is taken back, the trainer will be questioned and very likley fined/sanctioned! Dramatic form reversals and changes in tactics must be explained, ahead of time. Such rules make the handicappers role a bit easier.

[Acertainsmile]

There are ways you can “protect” your horse from being claimed, not 100% fullproof, but makes the odds swing a little better in your favor of keeping one.

[summerhorse]

A lot of those owners trainers seem to be so afraid of that want to run their horses over their heads know it is the only way they can run and KEEP their horses because they know the odds of someone claiming a horse obviously not worth X$ are slim. Of course the horse is probably never going to win either.

Here’s some rules to start out. A horse cannot drop down in value from (say $15,000) unless it has been unplaced 4 times in a row. Then it can drop down to the next level say $12,500. If it wins 4 times in a row it HAS to run next at $15,000. Exception would be a horse coming off a layoff of over 4 months can drop down a level or two. If it wins it can only run at that level one more time and then it has to move up.

Conditions can include such no horses that have been 1-3 in a (name your level) stake in their last 6 starts. No graded stakes winners in their last 12 starts or last 12 months or… The conditions restricting horses from “slumming” are ENDLESS just as the conditions to require horses to stay at their level. They can even write in horses that have finished 1-4 in such and such an amount of race at X and X tracks.

If there is one thing racing can do is write RULES!

Handicaps would help a lot as they would be open to all horses and it wouldn’t be so hard to find conditions. Optional claimers would also help as then the people who want to play the claiming game can do so and those that don’t don’t have to but the horses can all race in their own class. If 1/3 of the non stakes/allowance races were regular claimers, 1/3 were optional claimers and 1/3 were various handicaps and starter allowances it would not only open up races for more horses but be more inviting for new and small owners.

I’m sure others can come up with tons more ideas.

I swear the TB race industry is determined to not change on iota since the 19th century! Heck so many of the trainers still don’t buy that the low heel, long toe trim is bad despite the fact it has been known for almost 30-40 years.

[SleepyFox]

[QUOTE=summerhorse;3814854]
A lot of those owners trainers seem to be so afraid of that want to run their horses over their heads know it is the only way they can run and KEEP their horses because they know the odds of someone claiming a horse obviously not worth X$ are slim. Of course the horse is probably never going to win either. [/QUOTE]

They think it’s the only way they can run and keep their horse. Big difference! :lol:

[Linny]

I don’t know about other venues but in NY and KY the number of claims per day is about 1 or 2. A typical day at Aqeduct sees 6 or 7 races with claiming tags and manybe one or two horses (out of maybe 50+ horses) gets claimed. Sometimes many days go by with no claims. Belmont seems to have alot of claims in the fall because the overall quality declines in the late fall at Aqueduct and horses who may look off form will improve with the move to the Big A.

It’s not like every horse is changing hands each time he races. Of course sometimes what is reported as “1 claim” actually involves several people dropping a slip for the same horse and one winner emerging from the “shake” to see who gets him.

[Pat_Ness]

and I would be very surprised if our horses were claimed - but I do NOT want to worry about it.

summerhouse, thanks for the ideas - I am going to keep notes and see if we can come up with some good conditions that would work for our track. Anyone else out there that could throw some conditions out that might work so I could get something written up? and is there anyone I can bounce these off so most of the loopholes are out of them?

Also, what are the ways you can swing the odds in your favor to keep your horse? Is it legal?

Thanks.
Pat

[jengersnap]

@Pat Ness;3815388

Also, what are the ways you can swing the odds in your favor to keep your horse? Is it legal?

Give your horse a really hard to spell name, particularly with odd spacing.

[Acertainsmile]

As far as trying to keep your horse “safe”… a change of equipment, adding a soft rubber burr, putting some cotton under a bandage so there appears to be a suspicious bulge, limit the horses walks around the paddock (claiming decisions are often made at the very last minute) if the claim box clock allowed you can also limit the warm up before the race (just make sure the groom has jogged him a bit before bringing him over to the paddock), and finally, bringing the horse to the paddock late…you will probably catch some crap from the paddock judge, and possibly have to explain to the stewards, but it’s usually a slap on the wrist.

This of course is assuming that the person that is looking at your horse is actually looking and paying attention, comparing him to the last time he ran, and not claiming him just off paper.

So now you know some of our tricks :)… hope that helped!

[Laurierace]

A long time ago I claimed a horse from Penn National named On The Phone. They were using the temporary paddock at the time and the way it was set up, unless they were walking the horse around, you could not see the horses at all. They took On The Phone straight to the stall and never brought him out so I ended up dropping the slip sight unseen.
We get him in the test barn after he wins and I am totally freaking out! He has two gigantic bows! Seems to be walking ok but I was still upset. After a few rounds we stopped him so I could cut the bandages off and huge wads of cotton come tumbling out! There wasn’t a single thing wrong with his legs. I thought it was so strange that they went to all the trouble of making it look like there was something wrong with his legs and then never let anybody see them. I totally would have fallen for it because they looked awful.
BTW, my $4000 claimer still holds the track record that he set for me July 13th, 1996.

[Acertainsmile]

Oh Laurie, been there done that (claiming a horse without looking first)… it happens that way sometimes…but if it’s at all possible, most people want to at least peek at them! I’m glad it all worked out for you though!

[DickHertz]

Unfortunately, there was a NTR this past summer for 6 Furlongs, but I remember watching the race when On the Phone tied the track record. Ironically, the horse he tied was one of my all-time favorite horses SPACEMAKER, who also set the track record in a cheap claiming race.

[DickHertz]

[QUOTE=Acertainsmile;3817016]
Oh Laurie, been there done that (claiming a horse without looking first)… it happens that way sometimes…but if it’s at all possible, most people want to at least peek at them! I’m glad it all worked out for you though![/QUOTE]

I did that this past summer, they brought her up with 12 MTP and the horse still hasn’t run back. Had I seen the poor farrier work - I only had one look and looked at everything I could - I never would have dropped the slip. She’s coming back in a couple of weeks, but I’m not very optimistic. It was almost like she was shod to breakdown. But, yeah, when people bring them real late I’m more apt to drop the ticket because I think they are hiding something. The only caveat is if it’s the first time the horse is running at the circuit because then he/she may be so bad that they know people will run the other way when the see the horse moving or their legs if they want the horse to get claimed.

[Laurierace]

He set, not tied the 5f track record. Last time I looked it was still standing.

[DickHertz]

You are right, I was thinking 6F