Clay for arena base?

[17Rider]

We finally have material to start building the indoor arena !
And now I’m losing sleep over the arena base.

We had excavators lower a hill, but also raise the other end of a 244’ long arena. There was a low spot in the middle they scraped out, dried, filled and packed. They also drove a sheep’s foot type packer a few days.

The main operator seemed knowledgeable about soft spots, and ‘good clay’… they removed a spot that was too crumbly / slightly sandy, and replaced with real clay from the dugout.

Its been flat and pretty dry for a month now, and the surface is 1’’ crumbly. I can scuff it with my sneaker.
Should clay for an arena base be tougher?
Is it just because it’s exposed to the outdoors the top layer is crumbly?

I’m imagining a horseshoe digging in and bringing up crumbles- Dust- into my footing!
Should I disc up the base, re-pack with a smooth packer machine?
Is this clay just too sandy if it crumbles whatsoever?

I have GGT mats on my mind… but I’d need another mortgage. My vet said to pour asphalt, like a parking lot in there!
advice?

[horsepoor]

I’m thinking that the clay would be the sub base, with a layer of rock or screening material as base, then whatever footing on top of that. If you just lay footing on top of clay, that seems like it would not be a good idea. I was at a place that did that (had a builder and excavator do the work that weren’t experienced in building riding arenas), and the horses would break through the footing to the clay and slip…it got really scary. You had to keep the footing watered, of course, so that meant slick clay. What they missed was doing a layer between the clay and the actual footing.

Other thing is that your base should shed water, not absorb too much, to facilitate drainage. Seems like dirt and clay would just get mucky, but maybe it isn’t as big a deal with an indoor. The base in my ring was pretty darn solid when they laid it, and not quite asphalt, but close!

But, I’m not an arena expert, just a rider and (now, finally…still so excited about it!) arena owner.

[Watermark_Farm]

Your base should be compacted to at least at 95% compaction rate. Get a compaction test done. It should be almost like concrete. If you can scuff down 1" with your sneaker toe, you are going to have problems.

You may need to “cap” the clay base with a layer of rock dust that’s watered, rolled, vibrated and compacted. The compaction causes the fines to “cream up” and harden like concrete.

Remember that clay is an expansive material, meaning that it expands and contracts with water content. This could be an issue if you have drainage issues around/under your arena base.

[JB]

My sub-base is red clay. It was indeed like concrete after it was leveled and rolled with a vibrating 20 ton roller.

There definitely needs to be more work if you can scuff it with a sneaker - a large truck rolling in it shouldn’t even leave tire marks.

[MeghanDACVA]

Ditto, ditto. Your clay is your SUBbase. And yes, it should very very very compacted. If you can scuff it, it ain’t compacted. IWhen you put your actual base on that, it will sink into the clay. You might want to consider re-wetting it, recompacting it and then putting a layer of fabric down. THEN putting down a real base. By base I mean 6-9" of compacted screenings/blue stone/crushed limestone/whatever it is called in your area. 6" is the bare bone minimum!!
To do the base, put down about half of it, wet it, compact it (not a sheeps foot, but regular roller compacter), put the other half down, wet it, compact it.
Other important “hint” is your crown or grade. You need the water to drain somewhere. So you either need it to crown it or have it graded to in such a way the water will flow off of the surface. This needs to be done to your clay sub-base as well as to your actual base.
And put french drains in around the outside now.

How do I know this? I spent almost 2 yrs researching my dream arena. And am glad I did. And the french drains are something we had to add despite everything.

Did I spend a lot more that I had planned? Hell yes. Was it worth it? Hell yes.

BTW, we have clay like you would not believe. Notice I am in OK. In the summer our ground (clay) is harder than kiln fired pottery!! We didn’t need to put fabric down because of this but we still needed a BASE over the clay SUBbase.

Another hint. Leave your SUBbase sit and be sure the water drains as it should. Ie no low spots, etc. BEFORE you spend the $$ on your base, and then your footing. Lesson learned there (very long story that is boring).

When it is all said and done, the dump trucks that bring your footing should be able to drive on your BASE, turn on it, etc and not damage it. If they do, the base is not done right.

The base should be as hard as asphalt (I learned that concrete is too hard).

Spend your money on what goes UNDER your footing. You can replace footing, even though it is not cheap. Having to replace the base and sub-base is a nightmare and expensive doesn’t even begin to describe the cost involved.

[17Rider]

Wow, I had never heard of putting rock over the clay for an indoor arena… it’s really very common here to use clay as the sub base, and the base!

Agreed, clay is very reactive to watering, which has potential for slipping, and later pot or mudholes. I’ll look into the rock… but afraid they deliver me something that does not stay compacted.

Once I had rocks coming up through the footing and I had to strip it all and trash 10k of rubber too.
I dug and re-compacted the damp clay base and it turned out great. Might of been a different clay than we have at the new farm.

If it’s crumbly- will it reach 95% compaction? Sand in the clay doesn’t pack/ stick does it?
We just had 4 semi trucks drive over the site yesterday, and it looks ok, still flat, but there’s that top inch that can be distrurbed/ tracks.

[JB]

@MeghanDACVA;6618902

By base I mean 6-9" of compacted screenings/blue stone/crushed limestone/whatever it is called in your area. 6" is the bare bone minimum!!

Ditto - I think all told I had 8" if not more of compacted sand rock as my base

Other important “hint” is your crown or grade. You need the water to drain somewhere. So you either need it to crown it or have it graded to in such a way the water will flow off of the surface. This needs to be done to your clay sub-base as well as to your actual base.

Ditto again - it’s got to slope somewhere, somehow, and just how and which direction depends on the land around it. Mine all slopes from one long side to the other, because 1 long and 1 short side are uphill from the others. No point in any crown to drain things to the uphill sides just to have to get the water around the ring again

And put french drains in around the outside now.

That, or a good swale, just depends on what’s going on around the arena

Did I spend a lot more that I had planned? Hell yes. Was it worth it? Hell yes.

LOL, I’m not sure I’ve ever heard someone say they over-budgeted :lol: :lol:

BTW, we have clay like you would not believe. Notice I am in OK. In the summer our ground (clay) is harder than kiln fired pottery!! We didn’t need to put fabric down because of this but we still needed a BASE over the clay SUBbase.

We had 11’ dug for the basement of our house, red clay top to bottom, and the footing inspector said “you could put a planet on this stuff and it wouldn’t go anywhere” LOLOL

That’s the same clay the sub base is.

Another hint. Leave your SUBbase sit and be sure the water drains as it should. Ie no low spots, etc. BEFORE you spend the $$ on your base, and then your footing. Lesson learned there (very long story that is boring).

When it is all said and done, the dump trucks that bring your footing should be able to drive on your BASE, turn on it, etc and not damage it. If they do, the base is not done right.

The base should be as hard as asphalt (I learned that concrete is too hard).

Spend your money on what goes UNDER your footing. You can replace footing, even though it is not cheap. Having to replace the base and sub-base is a nightmare and expensive doesn’t even begin to describe the cost involved.

More ditto. If you screw up that sub-base, it WILL show its ugly head up top sooner or later, and then it’s not only a pita, but $$$$$ to fix.

You do not want to see a single puddle, not matter how minor, sitting on that sub-base. Give it time to get really and truly dumped on before you decide to add stuff on top of it. Fixing minor imperfections may make you sound like an anal retentive perfectionist, but omg you just need to do that or it WILL bite you big time later. Any good arena contractor will understand that. Anyone else might not, but be persistent about it

[MeghanDACVA]

JB: Thank you for your dittos!! Like I said, I spent 2 yrs researching how to do my arena before I did it. Literally from the bottom up. I didn’t take any one “experts” word for it. I gathered info, and gathered, and gathered. Does that make me anal retentive?

The mistakes that got made are because I let my AR-ness slip. Not major mistakes but mistakes none the less. Some we were able to fix.

I love my arena. It will outlive me, at least the base will. Footing will always need to be refreshed; 'tis the nature of the beast. But the base will be there forever. As it should be.

[JB]

When you’re spending that much $$ on a ring that will cost that or more to fix, who cares of that makes you AR :lol:

My biggest mistake was hiring guys who said they could do all this with little equipment. I swear I gave myself an ulcer, and I cried, and finally I fired them because THIS is what they did and said they could fix :eek: :no:

Hell. No.

I hired the guy I should have hired in the first place and which is nice big motor grader, he fixed it all up, proven by rain, and I couldn’t be happier.

[MeghanDACVA]

JB, I’ll see your mess and raise you a bunch!!
Bear with the long story.
DH does a lot of his own dirt work as a rule. When we lived in VA had his own very nice track loader with 6 way bucket, etc. We have 3 tractors, all with front end loaders and more attachements than any one person should have. Have a back hoe now (sold the track loader when we moved to OK). He is very good with a transit, etc.
When we bought the 80 acres we have now it was bare land. DH isn’t getting any younger (he is 69 now and we bought the property 7 yrs ago). So figured he would do the sensible, “normal” thing and actually have PROFESSIONALS do the work. And not just the arena but all the buildings, the house, etc. (For that part this story could go on for pages and pages!! But I will stick the just the arena part.)
He hired a contractor he had used before to put a septic system in on another property we had, and sold. He had been very happy with their work then. Now remember, he is quite good with a transit and had already staked out where the arena was to go and and set out grade stakes, etc. As the guys were moving dirt to level the site he asked them several times about the amount of dirt they were moving and the slope, etc that he was seeing. They assured him that it was right and that they had checked with their laser transit (as opposed to his old fashioned transit). So he let it go.
The arena is a bit unique, but I won’t get into that. But suffice it to say that a portion of it is covered and as such it had to have a concrete footer poured. And as I am sure JB knows, you have to let concrete cure well before you set beams, etc. (We won’t get into how the “pros” that poured the footers screwed them up) The footers are actually a low stem wall around the arena. While the concrete was curing we had a really good rain. And we discovered we had a swimming pool!! With a deep end and a shallow end.
DH was oh so very right about how the “pros” had graded the site. It had a lovely slope from south to north so the “deep end” was north.
I don’t know how much he paid the “pros” but I do know DH rented a dozer for a month and moved dirt, and more dirt, and more dirt. To level the arena. I can’t remember how much but suffice to say he called me at work and asked me “where do you want the other arena?” To which I said: I don’t want another arena. His reply: I have to put all this dirt somewhere so you getting another arena. And sure enough, not only do we have the original full sized dressage arena (and perimeter) but we also have a small dressage arena that is built up (I wish I could do pictures!). And he had enough dirt to re-do an entire terrace line as well.

BUT, both arenas drain beautifully now

More lessons:
The contractor I used for putting in the base came out with one of the little compactor like what is used for doing private driveways. When I told him that was not enough umph he argued with me. And told me it would cost more since he would have rent a bigger one. Duh. Go rent one then. He did and lo and behold, it made a world of difference. It really sucks when the woman is right!
Be there when your material is delivered!! I went to the “sand pit” to look at different sands for my footing. Talked with the guy who was actually very knowledgable and helpful and we decided on which sand I needed. I took a sample home with me. Unfortunately the dump truck driver that hauled it went to a different location of the same company (don’t ask me why). I wasn’t there when the sand was delivered. When I got home DH had already spread all of it. And it was plain sand, not the sand that I had ordered. It was full of fines!! And by this time, it was way too late to do anything about it. Moral to that story, YOU be there when the material is delivered and be 110% sure it is the material you ordered. Do not trust anybody else to know that it is the right material. Compare what is in the truck with your sample BEFORE they dump it. If isn’t the exact same material, don’t accept it.

And I could go on and on with the screw ups the “pros” have done with various installations on this property that we have had to re-do ourselves. But this is enough.

[JB]

“It really sucks when the woman is right” oh they hate that! :lol: :lol:

“where do you want the other arena” - “Oh $h!t” is what I said out loud- really! Scared the cat

“be there when your materials are delivered” - really, I’m tired of ditto’ing you The 3rd load of my “screened” sandrock was delivered and I saw fist-sized chunks in it :eek: :eek: I said “whoa whoa, hold ON!!!” We looked and examined, and my delivery guy looked fairly horrified. He went back to the quarry and demanded to see A Man About A Thing, and it turned out the screen had large holes in it :rolleyes:

I still had to pay him for his driving time, which was thankfully only an extra load, but my grading guy was able to scrape out the majority of that load and we used it to cover the clay between the ring and the barn.

I would HATE to think what would have happened if there had been 4, 5, 10 loads of that “screened” stuff dumped on my ring!!

[MeghanDACVA]

[QUOTE=JB;6621269"where do you want the other arena" - “Oh $h!t” is what I said out loud- really! Scared the cat
[/QUOTE]

ROFL!!

[TrotTrotPumpkn]

2 thoughts.

1. My personal opinion is clay should be a sub-base. Especially if you are going to use water frequently. That is how I would do it…sub-base.

2. That said, almost no one around here does anything other than clay as a base. We are just too cheap as a whole I guess. My friend has a very nice clay base indoor arena and yes, when she would water then the cantering horses would get through to the base and scoop it up. It also was extremely slippery.

That said, she stopped watering. How? Started using a spray application of Cal. Chloride to get rid of dust (it works) and the unplanned for side effect was she no longer needs to water her arena until the mag chloride or cal. chloride (has used both at different times) wears off and it is time for a reapplication. Her sand is an angular quartzite, not that it matters.

[17Rider]

Compaction ideas?

I found a website of a gravel pit an hour from here. Which of these products below sound like bluestone? I would go to the pit today for samples, if I knew what to look for!

Also thinking, what should go under the concrete for the barn aisles?
We were leaning towards concrete in the stalls also, and then soft stall mattresses in top , but I’m open to saving on concrete, if compacted sand/ rock will work under the mattresses ?

•20 mm Base material - ( Non-spec compacting base material )
•2 - 20 mm – ( ¾" Crush Gravel- A.T. & 3– 20mm City of Ed. Spec)
•4 - 20 mm – ( ¾" Crush Gravel- Road Topping Material – A.T. Spec)
•2 - 40 mm - ( 1 ½" Crush Gravel - Base Material )
•2 - 50 mm - ( 2" Crush Base Material)
•6 - 80 mm - Screened Pit Run - ( 3" Minus Pit Run)
•Pit Run - Bank Pit Run (only 5% over 80mm)
•8 mm minus Screened Sand (KRA & Sand Pit)
•Screenings – ( Fill Sand – )
•5mm & 8mm Dry Chip-(Rock Chips for Ice Control) Screened Buckshot
•20 – 5 mm – Washed Rock ( ¾" - ¼" Fractured W. Rock)
•W. M F - Washed Manufactured Fines (Manufactured sand)
•Weeping Tile Rock

[SuckerForHorses]

[QUOTE=horsepoor;6618751]
… If you just lay footing on top of clay, that seems like it would not be a good idea. I was at a place that did that (had a builder and excavator do the work that weren’t experienced in building riding arenas), and the horses would break through the footing to the clay and slip…it got really scary. You had to keep the footing watered, of course, so that meant slick clay.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t read all the replies, but I will agree with Hoorsepoor. We worked with a local fairgrounds to have a riding ring (outdoor) installed for equine events, including gymkhanas. The fairgrounds hired someone who had no idea what they were doing, and the footing was essentially clay, with a clean gritty sand on top.

At our “ribbon cutting” event for the new ring, we had NUMEROUS horses fall down, just loping around the ring.

We haven’t used the ring since.

Then the fairgrounds got this idea that if you essentially rototilled the clay INTO the sand, so they were like clumped together, that it woudl be better. Negative. I had a horse show there this summer (this is a few years after the ring was put in, and not doing gymkhana games and only doing walk/trot, I figured the footing wouldn’t be too bad). Another negative.

I couldn’t lunge him when we got there, because it had rained the night before, and the ring was like walking on black ice. You know when there is a puddle, and the water evaporates, and it leaves that thin slimy layer on the ground? The entire ring was like this. I could barely stay on my feet during our showmanship class. By the time the riding classes started, the ring was dry, and was like packed concrete. I literally had to gouge chunks of the dried material out of my gelding’s shoes.

[MeghanDACVA]

17Rider
Just talked to DH about your sizes. Seems every gravel pit/quarry uses different terminology!! Here are his comments:
You do not want washed material.
You want particle size about 2-3 mm in size.
It should look like big course sand. If you walked it in barefeet you would say ouch but could still walk on it. No “ROCKS”.
If you take some home, wet it, pack it and let is sit and dry (in the sun is best, ie “bake it”). It should harden. Obviously you won’t have run a couple ton compactor over it so it won’t be as hard as that. But it should harden and be pretty hard to crumble with your hand, etc.
He also did not know what “KRA” stands for.
If nothing they have fits the above, you can use coarse sand and add Portland cement to it (I will have to ask him how much, etc) then dampen it as you would normally for compacting it.
On my computer at home I have a formula for calculating how much, in tons or yds, you need for the size of your arena. I have also posted it on the boards before so you can search and it if you want.

Also, if want to PM me with your address, I can sent you a generous handful of what is called screenings here in OK (same thing as Bluestone on the east coast) so you can see the size, etc. We are going to be out of town until Monday so I couldn’t get it out to you until M or T but I would be delighted to do it.

JB: I asked DH how much dirt he moved when he re-did the arena. The south end, ie the high end, was 6’ higher than that north end. Mind you, this is only a full sized dressage arena, ie 60 meters long, plus a smidge. So quite a drop!! It was flat, just not LEVEL!!

SuckerForHorses: People around here do the same thing, even in indoors. They disk up the clay/dirt then add sand or whatever on top and mix it in. At least in an indoor it doesn’t get rained on. But then they water it! It then gets slick if the overwater it. And it gets sticky. And it has NO bounce to it. It is absolutely positively DEAD to ride on. I don’t care how deep they dig/work/disc/whatever it. It is DEAD. I see people who have spent boocoos bunches of money on their arena BUILDING only to have this absolutely sucky nasty dead footing. It just boggles my mind.

[JB]

I hear ya on the drop - mine ended up being a bit over 5’ over a 180’ run, but the difference was made up by just moving some of the dirt from the hind end to the low end, as there was no way I could 1) have done something with all that extra dirt, and 2) deal with a 5’ “wall” at the one end as it sticks out into my pasture. It was built along one side of my pasture fence, inside it, so I had to make sure I didn’t have drop-offs too bad.

I too know a few people around here who just graded (correctly) the clay, then just put 3-4" of sand on top I just don’t get it - it doesn’t take but a few good scoots to go through that amount and into the clay and then you’re just heading down a very bad road

[Charlie08]

This topic alone makes my head spin enough to put off building our arena. In every other state I’ve lived, the arena construction guidelines were pretty standard- having base, sub-base, and whatever preffered topping(s). Since moving to Georgia, where this awful red clay is the bane of my existence for every other horsekeeping matter, the “pros” swear it is the holy grail for arenas and will double as a base/sub-base. See Guidelines on this page:

http://georgiahorsearenas.com/guidelines

Based on the comments here, it seems like this is not accurate? Any thoughts after reading the link?

[JB]

I simply cant fathom not having a base between a clay sub-base and the top footing.

It’s bad enough when you punch through to the base , but to damage your sub-base is… :no:

[MeghanDACVA]

I used to live in Alabama, home of red clay like that of which Charlie08 speaks. Yes, it is the bane of your existence, esp if you anything light colored. THEN I moved to Oklahoma. It ain’t called Red Dirt country for nothing. Makes Ga/Al red clay look like child’s play!!

As for punching thru to your sub-base, etc…ignorance is bliss.