Oh ug. Very bad.
Is there a thumbs down? After seeing him in person abusing people’s horses, I wouldn’t even use his methods.
I love his training methods! Saw him in person and that didn’t change my mind either. I guess we all are entitled to our own opinions on trainers though 
No thanks.
Too bad. I’ve seen a few of his lessons on disk and took away some useful strategies on ground work–but I didn’t see him doing anything like those pictures.
[QUOTE=Turn_N_Burn32;8100112]
I love his training methods! Saw him in person and that didn’t change my mind either. I guess we all are entitled to our own opinions on trainers though :)[/QUOTE]
I must say your name is very suitable for an Anderson fan, or are you a pot boiling Alter who joined just to post this comment?
[QUOTE=merrygoround;8100650]
I must say your name is very suitable for an Anderson fan, or are you a pot boiling Alter who joined just to post this comment?[/QUOTE]
Maybe you are right, that could possibly be a troll.
I will say, since some of my friends are barrel racers, that is a very common word play for them.
Other disciplines have such, common to their discipline, like dressage queen or hunter princess, that doesn’t really mean much to them.
Those not in the know may think those are odd names and some even make fun of them, but the real barrel racers, dressage or hunter riders consider them common and descriptive.
I have seen those in mugs, caps and t-shirts.
I am simply expressing my opinion. I thought that is what we were allowed to do on this sight. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this is mine. You see “yanking” in every discipline. Not that its ok but everyone gets frustrated. Just because i like him does not mean you have to. I am not trying to change your mind. I am just simply stating that i do like his training methods especially all the ground work he does with colts.
Also, Turn N Burn is a barrel racing saying i love it so therefore i made it my name. Nothing else.
I think hitting a drafty type gelding with the stick on the face causing both eyes to swell shut is abuse. I get tapping even hard behind the ear on the neck but on the face directly on their eyes, abuse.
A good trainer will read a horse, a draft needs a little more time to think and then react. Hurting one doesn’t teach respect, just fear of being hit.
I lost any respect or potential respect for Clinton Anderson just a few minutes of watching his techniques. And the people that watched this and thought it was ok, and if they did this to their own horses, he has taught them to abuse rather train their horses.
Poor handling happens with a lot of horses. A trainer may have to get pretty tough on a horse that is dangerous, but this was beyond that.
I don’t think anyone is disputing that yanking occurs in all disciplines (and that everyone has done it at least once in their career). I think most people have an issue with yanking being one of the core principles of a training method.
To me, he looks incredibly rough. Horse always behind the bit. Getting harshly spurred in the gut if it lifts its head. Training occurring more out of pain and force than actually trying to teach the animal. Sure he’s getting results, but certainly not in a way that would be considered enlightened.
You can break a horse like an old fashioned cowboy by whipping the crap out of it, or you can start it slowly and gently on the ground and build up. Both produce a “broke” horse, but one is much more pleasant and less physiologically damaging than the other. Obviously this horse is broke but his methods are more like the old fashioned cowboy–way more forceful than they need to be. Of course, the whole process goes faster if you force the animal into submission, rather than methodically teaching them, so I guess that’s one benefit of doing it his way.
If you believe that modern reining horse training techniques for young horses is the superior and excellent example of correct and progressive training, and that the over manipulation of the head and neck through the liberal use of a snaffle bit, and the twisting of the horses body through the use of spuring, is the ideal and improved method of making a good horse, then Clinton Anderson is a great trainer.
He’s not very elegant, is he? :no:
Yes, I am for Clinton Anderson. And here is why: (previously posted under the last CA post on the Western forum) --and a bit of new thought added at the bottom . . . and no, I’m not a Troll, or anyone other than me.
Clinton Anderson is a teacher --of horses, of people --but bottom line he has a method or lesson he has faith in, and tries to educate other people in what has worked for him.
Keeping that in mind, remember that all teachers and their methods are not acceptable nor do they work for all students. Further, every teacher has good and bad days, good and bad lessons, and again, what works for one student will not work for another. What is acceptable “discipline” to one parent is “abusive” to another.
I find both CA and John Lyons videos helpful. I’m a teacher (high school Lit and psychology). I like how CA (and JL) “write their lesson plans” in a logical method where each step builds on the other. And me PERSONALLY, I like the kind of horse that is the result of me using their methods. I like that CA’s lesson plans are about 30 min long (my attention span) and suggest working with the horse about an hour at a time (daily) --maybe a couple of times a day, but minimum hour a day with 20 min review, 20 min new stuff, and 20 min doing something the horse does well. He makes it clear that the once a week rider will not find success as quickly as someone who works with a horse daily --just like school, he said. I like that. And I like that the DVDs show common problems one will run into, and mistakes the handler/rider makes, and mistakes the horse will possibly make.
I like that CA never calls a horse bad or says the horse has a bad attitude. He makes sense to me.
I have never seen him in person, and base ALL my knowledge of him on a few DVDs that I followed along with, and then went down and practices on what he calls “a fat lazy gelding.” I don’t know how his methods would work on an OTTB, although I did train two of them ground manners using his methods quite successfully (desensitizing, staying out of my personal space, loading, backing in hand, that sort of thing --and that went well).
As I said, no teacher or trainer is beyond reproach as there are too many people who simply hold different opinions on how a lesson should be taught. I teach high school seniors. I expect hands to be raised before they speak in class. Other teachers use a more “open forum” insisting that raising hands is demeaning and indicates that the teacher is the superior (wisdom) in the classroom where ideas are all equal in value. Do my students learn less? I see it as respect where other teachers see it as forced submission.
Same with horses. I foxhunt --that can be rather violent at times with mad gallops over hills, through woods, jumping things never meant to be jumped (like hounds). Then we stop. And wait. MY HORSE stands absolutely still. He never touches the bit --as a matter of fact, I HUNT on a loose rein in a snaffle bit. My horse moves off leg and seat and pretty much has his head free. To others in the hunt -this is a sign my horse is poorly trained and I am a poor rider. I’ve been told that I should keep my horse on the bit and count my strides between fences and let him know when to jump --can’t do it, I don’t know that stuff myself. He jumps when he thinks it’s the right moment to do so and I stay out of his way. One rider asked if I didn’t mind that I couldn’t feel my horse’s mouth and have a conversation with him through my hands --um, no. She asked how I keep him from running into the horse ahead since I don’t use my reins -well, he slows when I post slower, or drop my weight into my stirrups. All of this is from CA videos. And at most checks or when I feel he’s not focused, we do the bending and releasing. It’s subtle, but we do it. Keeps him limber, light in the bridle, and remembering that I’m riding.
And to those who prefer hot horses yanking at the bits and prancing and dancing during checks --and doing some rearing and bucking now and then --I admire their ability to stay on. He did act like that when I started him, but training cured it–I don’t think my horse fears me --I do think he respects me. And before you decide I don’t ride well --I’m usually asked to ride in the Master’s pocket (right beside him) and when people need a lead over a tricky fence, it’s often my horse and me who are asked to do so -
Different people want differently trained horses. I want a quiet mount who thinks for himself. I trained my horse to do that. People who want a horse on the bit, a handful of energy, should steer clear of CA --that’s not what he’s trying to do.
Oh, and there is a fine line between fear and respect. A horse that is afraid can’t learn (neither can a student who is afraid of a teacher). But without respect, a teacher can’t teach. That CA expects (demands?) his horses respect to me is a basic element of the teaching (training) process.
New thought if you’ve read this far --specifically to OP --it is easy to surf the web and find a picture of about anyone doing something wrong. I wonder how many pictures and videos out there are of CA doing something right that you didn’t post? Frankly, if you followed me around my classroom for the last 30+ years I bet you could take a few pictures (ok, more than a few) of me being a “bad teacher” --ugly, angry face at a poor child who didn’t have his homework in , a hand on a shoulder that looks improper, a hug that might be “inappropriate.” You might even catch me pulling down my slip, or adjusting a bra strap. ALL IN A CLASSROOM!!
If you followed me around my farm you could probably take pictures of me abusing my animals. I’m sure (more than sure) that the hound whip I use in hunting was used to warn my dogs off chasing the sheep (imagine a pix of me using a small bullwhip --that’s what they look like-)- to flog my dogs! I’m sure there could be a horrible picture of me tossing a barn cat out of the barn on a snowy morning into a bank of snow (after he tripped me by wrapping around my legs) --and horse abuse, yep --follow me around with a camera and you will see me abusing my horses with spurs and whips —both of which I wear and use to the best of my ability, but if you took a photo at just the right time, would look like horse abuse to some – wonder what we could photograph you doing?
Now remember OP, CA is photographed a ton more than me in reality --and I have no doubt that those photos you posted show him doing something he shouldn’t have. He’s human –
But here’s the point of this long ramble --if you are going to point and shoot like you did in your post --I challenge you to do it better. Would you let me know where I can buy your training DVDs? Can you post a video of your trained horses in action with you doing the training? If you can’t, then what do you suggest an old lady like me do? Just let my horse sit in the barn until I magically figure out how to address his issues or improve what he does? Maybe you should figure out that even if CA and John Lyons and the other “popular” trainers aren’t what you are looking for, they do work for some people – and we who DO use and follow along with what they teach are SMART enough to know when training becomes abusive --I would never hit my horse in the eyes (although I did accidentally put a polo mallet up his nose by accident when I missed a shot) –
Oh, and another thought (geesh, I do run on) --I was trying to each my horse to back out of my personal space when I walked toward him. I was getting nowhere --doing everything the CA DVD said to do. Finally, I stepped forward, tripped, and fell flat in front of my horse who then when FLYING backwards. What I learned (by scaring the poor horse to death) was I needed to make my BODY LANGUAGE easier to read --remember I’m a little old lady and CA is a big fellow --my horse didn’t realize what I wanted because I didn’t make my cues FORCEFUL enough. If you filmed the flailing arms and huge waving gestures I made with my CA stick after that --you’d have thought I was a nut case --but my horse learned!! And now I just take a tiny step forward and he backs out of my way –
So yes --I am for Clinton Anderson --and anyone else who tries to be a teacher --we’re never going to satisfy everyone --but who can?
Foxglove
Seen enough of Clinton Anderson to know he’s not for me… but then the whole sport of reining, as demonstrated aptly in Clinton’s video makes me cringe. I always strive to be open-minded and allow that not everyone wants the same results, but I do think all that extreme flexion is crossing the line into territory where the horse’s long-term comfort and soundness is being compromised by what is presented as “the pinnacle” of training.
Foxglove, I’m glad you’re enjoying the results you’ve achieved from CA’s methods and your horse sounds like a lovely ride to me. I, too, believe that a well-timed photo of still-frame can make any average person look like a hero or a villain… But, the video discussed in the blog post is 40-some minutes of footage paid for and promoted by CA, so I think it’s pretty fair to critique it as a representation of his work.
[QUOTE=wyeoakequine;8102297]
Seen enough of Clinton Anderson to know he’s not for me… but then the whole sport of reining, as demonstrated aptly in Clinton’s video makes me cringe. I always strive to be open-minded and allow that not everyone wants the same results, but I do think all that extreme flexion is crossing the line into territory where the horse’s long-term comfort and soundness is being compromised by what is presented as “the pinnacle” of training.
Foxglove, I’m glad you’re enjoying the results you’ve achieved from CA’s methods and your horse sounds like a lovely ride to me. I, too, believe that a well-timed photo of still-frame can make any average person look like a hero or a villain… But, the video discussed in the blog post is 40-some minutes of footage paid for and promoted by CA, so I think it’s pretty fair to critique it as a representation of his work.[/QUOTE]
I agree that overflexing at the poll on a continual basis will cause damage to the structure of the neck, most notably to the nuchal ligament. I’m not defending CA, but you can take hours and hours of video of anyone and splice it together to make that person look bad. I don’t follow any one person or trainer blindly; I pay attention and see if there are any techniques that I find useful and humane.
Interesting – I had never seen any of his riding stuff or him in person, but have seen some of his groundwork DVDs and thus far have found what I have seen to be somewhat useful. I pick and choose what I like and don’t like, but again, have only seen some DVDs, and none with riding.
Fash44 and others I have a question on the extreme flexing at the poll you refer to —I don’t want to hurt my horse but I do like him to go softly on a loose rein --so here’s my question on flexing --When W (my horse WD-4D) becomes excited or pulls on the bit (he must not do this because I have a shoulder replacement and cannot hold more than 10 pounds --continual tugging would be the end of me!) --anyway, when W becomes excited or tugs on his bit, I do a steady pull to one side until he “gives me his face” or relaxes the tension in the rein. Then I immediately release. This may be as slight as an inch or two --a kind of “W, let go of the bit,” reminder or a pull to where his nose is touching my boot --OR BEYOND --now I’m getting to the question --W is a cooking junkie. Because I won’t let him graze in a bit when we hunt (many do) I feed him cookies. I take a cookie out of the saddle pack sandwich case, and give it to him by him opening his mouth and I drop it in. Over the years, he’s learned that when I open the saddle pack (it’s behind my leg) he’s getting a cookie and he will stand with his mouth hanging open with his head past my knee almost touching his own hip. Is this going to cause him to have neck problems? I don’t MAKE him do it --he just does it because he wants a cookie. I’ve seen him in the pasture scratch the back of his own hock by holding up his leg and reaching back that far -so it isn’t exactly unnatural --but after what you’ve written, maybe I should discourage him from reaching around so far -FYI he can do it on both sides and touch his head to his belly, too from between his front legs. And (umm, embarrassed here) he’s trained to kneel for me to mount and lie down in case we are ever attacked I can take cover behind him (one too many Western movies as a child). When things are dull on the hunt field, he’s a real show pony.
So what do you think? Is he over flexing or just one of those agile cow ponies that do stuff like that? Should I be careful with him more than I am?
Foxglove
“Spurs mean softness?” WTF?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;8102754]
“Spurs mean softness?” WTF?[/QUOTE]
Properly used spurs are a refinement of a leg aid.
You need a steady, educated leg to wear spurs, thus the “earning your spurs”.
