Clinton Anderson training?

Ugh…

I watched a CA type of instructor teaching a lesson to some very very beginner riders who just simply have more money than cents. This instructor pulled the horse’s nose to his outside knee, walked the horse down the long side of the arena and proclaimed to the students. “Now, this is a shoulder in. My good friend, Karl Milkolka, taught me this at a clinic.”

I LAUGHED OUT LOUD and then blurted out “No, it’s not!” I was immediately labeled by this “gentle horseman” as a “know it all” and then asked if I have ever ridden in a Karl Milkolka clinic.

NH has a place, it is NOT in dressage.

:yes:

[QUOTE=Liz;3340454]
Bull$hit. Most good dressage riders and trainers are good horseman. Far better than Mr. CA.

He is just selling himself as a brand, he is no “superior” horseman. It is all packaging.

If you disagree then you are not riding with a good dressage rider/trainer.[/QUOTE]

Hmm got to disagree with this one and I’m not talking specifically about dressage.

if we agree that “most” = the majority,

then you believe the majority of good dressage trainers are bad horsemen?

what kind of dressage (or any other discipline) are you exposed to that makes you believe that? (actually curious!)

The OP asked what we thought about CA for dressage. That is what I am responding to.

If you are not talking specifically about dressage why not post on a forum for the discipline you practice.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not think CA is a “good” horseman, I think he is a salesman. If you do not agree then that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. No hard feelings.

I think Clinton is kind of a girlie-man myself – too scrawny and pale for my taste. :wink:

He may have a few useful tricks for behavioral and handling issues, but beyond basic colt-starting I don’t know how his training would translate to correct dressage training.

Regarding submission and leading the horse from the side or the front, any student of herd behavior will see that the dominant mare drives her subordinates from behind. She may also choose to lead as well, but she has more control from behind. I feel I have much more control leading at the horse’s shoulder. Trailing behind I find the horse is more likely to balk or play up. Leading from the side, if the horse spooks there’s no guarantee he won’t jump sideways and run into me, but he is less likely to do so if I have him listening and under control.

Sometimes I allow the horse to walk behind, but that’s my prerogative as herd matriarch.

[QUOTE=Gucci Cowgirl;3340519]
if we agree that “most” = the majority,

then you believe the majority of good dressage trainers are bad horsemen?

what kind of dressage (or any other discipline) are you exposed to that makes you believe that? (actually curious!)[/QUOTE]

Hunter/jumper world and dressage. There are great horseman in all discipline’s but there are a WHOLE lot that are not… I think Clinton is a good horseman but as far as training for a specific discipline probably not so much. I work in the industry so I’ve seen Clinton more times than I care to admit and he’s done some really good work…One of the biggest TB farm’s in Lexington KY had to have Parelli come and work with one of their most dangerous stallions…There’s more to horsemanship then throwing your right leg over a horse…

you don’t say.

riding isn’t horsemanship, and horsemanship is not riding…the two can very easily be mutually exclusive.

But the best riders/trainers work hard to ensure that those two things are NEVER mutually exclusive.

and so does a “WHOLE lot” mean more or less than “the majority” to you? because if it means less, than you are backpedaling on your disagreement earlier…

[QUOTE=Gucci Cowgirl;3340619]
you don’t say.

riding isn’t horsemanship, and horsemanship is not riding…the two can very easily be mutually exclusive.

But the best riders/trainers work hard to ensure that those two things are NEVER mutually exclusive.

and so does a “WHOLE lot” mean more or less than “the majority” to you? because if it means less, than you are backpedaling on your disagreement earlier…[/QUOTE]

I don’t think competing a lame horses is being a good horseman and some top riders have done it and you don’t have to go back to far to find it… Just like not everyone is going to agree on what is a good rider or trainer we aren’t going to agree on what makes a good horseman…I don’t think having the trials so late and not having enough time to prepare the horses with all the flying and quarentee is being good horseman… Hopefully they all make it through without any difficulties… To often the ego is put before what is best for the horse…that is not being a good horseman…

My personal favorite is “Chris Cox Retrains the Sour Dressage Horse”.

He does stop it from rearing; he just puts it behind the bit and very BTV.

Oh yeah, there is NO ego involved with Clinton Anderson.

[QUOTE=Liz;3340667]
Oh yeah, there is NO ego involved with Clinton Anderson.[/QUOTE]

Oh for sure but does that ego get put before the welfare of the horse maybe or maybe not… I haven’t witnessed it…

so are you saying the majority of dressage trainers are bad horseman or not?

the USEF/USDF does what it can when it can…lets not start bashing our home organizations just for the sake of arguing. If you have specific well thought out, researched ideas that you can pass on to those organizations to help them schedule their CDI’s and trials in a way that you believe is more responsible, than you should write them a letter and share them.

Every olympic year is stressful and time-starved.

All of the dressage trainers and most of the dressage riders I know are horse(wo)men first and dressage riders second. On the other hand, the upper level dressage trainer wants and needs a horse that is much different in temperament and behavior than what a trail rider would want/need (or the vast majority of western or English disciplines, for that matter).

[QUOTE=Gucci Cowgirl;3340695]
so are you saying the majority of dressage trainers are bad horseman or not?

the USEF/USDF does what it can when it can…lets not start bashing our home organizations just for the sake of arguing. If you have specific well thought out, researched ideas that you can pass on to those organizations to help them schedule their CDI’s and trials in a way that you believe is more responsible, than you should write them a letter and share them.

Every olympic year is stressful and time-starved.[/QUOTE]

I’m not bashing I thought you wanted examples so I gave them… I realize some won’t agree and that is just fine:D Just fyi I used the word many not majority and yes I think many are not good horseman but that goes for all disciplines…

Natural Dressage

Hay, HorseLovers
My background combines dressage, Centered Riding, and Natural Horsemanship. I have ridden in tons of dressage lessons and clinics. My primary goal was to have happy, healthy horses.

After lots of lessons, I realized that I was too stiff to be the rider that my horses needed. Fortunately, I discovered Sally Swift. Centered Riding helped me become more relaxed, fluid, and in balance with my horses. My horses and I are eternally grateful for Sally Swift.

At Equitana, I saw the Parelli Savvy Team doing lots of interesting challenges with their horses. They and their horses looked like they were having a blast. So began learning the Parelli Natural Horsemanship philosophy and methods.

My horses have been lighter, rounder, softer, more responsive, and enthusiastic since becoming involved in Natural Horsemanship. The “go” horses have become quieter and more relaxed, while the “whoa” horses have become more forward. And we’re all having lots of FUN!

I did not throw out everything I learned in my dressage lessons and clinics. I’m just better able to implement it now.

If your passion is dressage and you want to combine it with Natural Horsemanship, I would recommend Mark Russell (author of Lessons in Lightness) or Karen Rolfe, a Grand Prix rider who combines her dressage expertise with Natural Horsemanship.

Mark trained extensively with Nuno Oliveira in Portugal. Oliveira believed that enjoyment and success in riding was predicated on first teaching the horse to relax. As the horse relaxes, positive energies are released and the alliance between horse and rider improves. These principles have guided Mark Russell in his pursuit of the artistry and lightness in riding. I would highly recommend Mark’s book, Lessons in Lightness.

Both Karen Rolfe and Mark Russell give clinics around the United States.

I have seen Clinton Anderson give several demonstrations. I have some concerns about some of his methods. One exercise he used extensively in the demos was to ride with the horse’s head & neck flexed to the side. I personally think that could be harmful to the horse physically. Clinton Anderson seems to really emphasize a submissive relationship with the horse. I personally prefer the dynamic partnership relationship (based on two-way communication) that Mark Russell, Pat & Linda Parelli, and Karen Rolfe demonstrate with their horses. I don’t hear these Natural Horseman discussing submission/dominance so much.

I do not believe every horse or rider needs Natural Horsemanship. I have seen many folks and their horses benefit. But truly it’s not for everyone. However, I’m delighted to have learned these methods. I have so many more solutions to problems, and I’m a much better rider.

PS about leading. I believe I should be able to easily lead my horse from the front, shoulder, or rump positions. That’s just basic communication.

[QUOTE=ridgeback;3340632]
I don’t think competing lame horses is good horsemanship and some top riders have done it and you don’t have to go back to far to find it… Just like not everyone is going to agree on what is a good rider or trainer we aren’t going to agree on what makes a good horseman…I don’t think having the trials so late and not having enough time to prepare the horses with all the flying and quarentee is good horsemanship… Hopefully they all make it through without any difficulties… To often the ego is put before what is best for the horse…that is not good horsemanship…[/QUOTE]

This is a load of horse poohy. EVERY Dressage competition has a licensed TECHNICAL DELEGATE. The TD’s job is to insure that no horses are abused or lame and that the rules are followed to the letter. If you EVER tried to ride a lame horse you would be eliminated so fast your head would spin. Additionally, Dressage is one of the few disciplines where you can not use anything in warmup that isn’t allowed in competition. Also no lunging for hours, no tying heads up or around, you get it?? You keep your nose clean or else.

As for the Olympic Trials, I really think the people in charge of these horses know what they are doing. Nuf said.:yes:

I love CA. :lol: No really. I don’t know why, maybe its the accent.:lol: He does do some great things with horses that have behavioral problems and he is great to train a horse for WP or Reining or Cutting :yes: Dressage, well he could do some good, but do some bad also :yes: He wouldn’t put in the forward motion and he doesn’t really understand true collection IMO. He things a “frame” is collection not moving from behind and picking itself up more in the front. So he could probably get a nice headset on a horse but a trained eye will know its not correct. His one mare that he loves dearly (I think her name is Mindy) is amazing as a dead broke WP or reiner or cutter. He just also won some breeders cup thing in reining, he does nice work with those horses, I just don’t think he would know enough about dressage to go very far with it.

[QUOTE=NoDQhere;3340789]
This is a load of horse poohy. EVERY Dressage competition has a licensed TECHNICAL DELEGATE. The TD’s job is to insure that no horses are abused or lame and that the rules are followed to the letter. If you EVER tried to ride a lame horse you would be eliminated so fast your head would spin. Additionally, Dressage is one of the few disciplines where you can not use anything in warmup that isn’t allowed in competition. Also no lunging for hours, no tying heads up or around, you get it?? You keep your nose clean or else.

As for the Olympic Trials, I really think the people in charge of these horses know what they are doing. Nuf said.:yes:[/QUOTE]

You are entitled to your opinion I know what I have seen and I know some horses have been lame enough they couldn’t compete all the way through an international competition… As for having faith in the “people in charge” that has already been hashed out. I will say I’m hoping they kick some serious butt at this olympics:)

In another thread someone that was at Gladstone in 06 saw another lame horse.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=155306&page=4

I like CA. I used his methods on my gelding when he was 6mo and in need of ground manners. It also gave me something to work on before he started undersaddle. My gelding is now 3 and has started undersaddle, but I still use CA’s ground techniques to keep him in order