Clinton Anderson training?

[pintopiaffe]

he,he… I skipped the entirety of page 2 of this. I have to get up in the morning.

I was starting ranch/rangebred babies back before “NH” ever had a ‘name.’ My teacher was a peer of John Lyons, and they learned under the same teacher.

I learned ways to take a foal who had been turned out as a weanling and barely touched again until spring of the 3yo year, SAFELY to become a summer camp/dude ranch/working cattle ranch horse. Smallish pens were involved. They were not always round, but were sturdy. “Liberty” work was involved, until the horse figured out that moving his feet (or not) at my suggestion was in his/her best interest.

Meanwhile, I never really used that again in my life, but for rare occasions. MOST horses I worked had the same semi-reasonable upbringing. Leading, bathing, clipping… tying etc. The rare one that doesn’t… the “NH” method comes in darn handy. For the others–including my own that I raise–simply expecting them to BEHAVE, but in time-segments relative to age–is what life is about. Started the now-5yo on the worst windstorm of the year last year. Was on him, walking around when the back barn looked suspiciously like it might end up right in the paddock we were occupying… and quit on a good note. NEVER so much as a rumour of bucking or running away, just some sweet, endearing confusion. (“Why are you up THERE?” and "I can’t POSSIBLE MOVE with you on top of me… :uhoh: :lol: )

Now I’ve got a dominant, fairly agressive, unstarted adult mare with an attitude. I will fall back on those Ranch skills.

There’s a time and a place. METHODS are developed for situations. Use the one that is appropriate.

[Jeff_Wolf]

One of the great - if frequently misunderstood - truths of horsemanship…

[QUOTE=Gucci Cowgirl;3340619]
…riding isn’t horsemanship, and horsemanship is not riding…the two can very easily be mutually exclusive…[/QUOTE]

[slc2]

god save us from great truths

[Sister_Margarita]

[QUOTE=slc2;3341393]
god save us from great truths[/QUOTE]

And great marketing-wise pontificators.

[kkj]

I know a couple of middle aged pleasure and trail riding women who absolutely love that guy. They go to a lot of his clinics, buy all his merchandise and drool over him. Neither of them can ride. Neither of them has become a noticably better rider since throwing lots of money his way. One bought a western saddle from him after his sales pitch, “this saddle fits any horse”. I saw it on her horse and I would say it clearly did not “fit”.

My problem with all the natural horse people is I haven’t seen one of them that really teaches people to ride, because you know what really learning to ride does not require a bunch of cheesy marketing or merchandise and it cannot be learned over a weekend or a week long clinic. It takes a lot of time and work, some fitness and athetic talent and sense and feel, which I hate to say it but most of the people who follow these NH gurus just don’t have. I equate them a little to the people looking for the quick diet fix or who mail away to learn a language in their sleep or whatever. Good riding is not about gimmicks or shortcuts. It is not about adolation of someone with a cool accent and a cute little butt.

Also I laugh a little when Parelli or CA or whoever try to take on dressage. I have ridden since before I could walk. I have started many horses, done cutting and reining and years of HJ. Switching to dressage and riding it properly meaning having the horse truly engaged, through, submissive, relaxed, expressive and accurate is very hard. Doing a proper Prix St George test to me is much more difficult that riding a good reining horse or jumping a 4’6" course on a horse with enough scope. It is not some set of circus tricks that some little cowboy pulls out of his a**. There are no quick fixes in dressage. You have to learn to ride.

[ridgeback]

They don’t teach how to ride they teach communication with the horse…I’ve never seen any of them give a “riding lesson”. They are great at marketing that is for sure why do you think the O’conners are/were partners with parelli??:lol::lol: You have to learn to ride in every discipline not just dressage.

[7HL]

There seems to be a conflict here…

…riding isn’t horsemanship, and horsemanship is not riding…the two can very easily be mutually exclusive…

from: http://www.ridingart.com/definition-of-dressage.htm

Classical dressage can be translated, “fine training” - capriole, piaffe, levade - yet it’s more than that. It defines quality in horsemanship at every stage, even at, and most importantly at, the “lowest levels”. Classical dressage is about aspiring to perfection; perfect communication, perfect balance, perfect coordination, perfect feel, perfect timing, perfect harmony. Relentlessly striving to improve skill and understanding and raising the bar, yet never being satisfied that we, as riders, have truly achieved perfection on our part. We can always be more subtle in our aiding. We can always have more feel. However, this striving for perfection is not just so we can pat ourselves on the back, thinking we’re somehow superior. It is truly because when we strive to ride better, it’s beneficial to the horse. The purpose behind classical dressage is to improve the experience for the horse. Characteristics of classical dressage are, imperceptible aids given by the rider, precision and light contact with the bit that results from gymnastically increasing the bending and weight carrying ability of the haunches and an obvious expression of enjoyment in the horse. Horses that are strong enough and riders who are interested can go on to the extremely collected movements and airs above the ground. That said, most horses are not that strong, and many riders are not interested in pursuing dressage to that extent, however, they can still uphold classical values when they ride their best for the good of their horses.

[Ajierene]

7HL - there is no conflict. Just because that definition exists and people are supposed to be good horsepeople, doesn’t mean they are. You can find similar definitions in various disciplines. Just because they are there, does not mean people follow them.

People talk about the “Golden Rule” - do unto others as you would have done to you - and do not follow them.

Some people are “Do as I say not as I do” people, while other are “Lead by Example” people. This is to varying degrees, and includes putting your personal needs infront of the horses’ needs. In my opinion, to think that just because someone is a student of dressage mean they are automatically a good horseperson is rather naive.

[Annie_B]

I think that the clinton anderson training method has nothing to do with what kind of discipline you are going to participate in. Clinton anderson works on submission of the horse and gaining the horses respect so that they are easier to work with. He may be a western rider but it matters not what discipline you ride when you use his methods. they work either way.

I went to one of his clinics and learned a lot. when I started doing his stuff with my horse I noticed a rapid change. It really does not matter what discipline. It is just gaining the respect of the horse to do what you ask and be submissive while still being a horse. you use pressure to train the horse instead of force, which helps you gain the horses resepect.

[7HL]

7HL - there is no conflict. Just because that definition exists and people are supposed to be good horsepeople, doesn’t mean they are. You can find similar definitions in various disciplines.

Where I see the conflict is that you don’t have to ride to be a good horseperson. Horsemanship however is more then just taking care of a horse. It involves some sort of use of a horse, from riding to driving.

[Ajierene]

That’s where I disagree. Horsemanship to me is taking care of the horse properly, whether that be riding or just having lawn ornaments. While many horses like to have a ‘job’, many more just do not feel the need to do anything with their lives other than to eat grass.

My Aunt wanted to ride and so my Uncle bought her a horse. A short few months later, she lost interest. That horse spent the next twenty years of his life with regular vet appointments, good feed, nice grass and occasionally giving a pony ride to one of the cousins. I cannot speak for how happy the horse looked, since I was young and he lived about three hours away at the time.

To me, this is horsemanship - they took on the responsibility of a horse and did not balk at keeping the horse in good health even though they were not riding it. I am not sure why they did not sell it to a good home, which would be equally as reasonable - but the point is, they took up the responsibility and did not dump the horse when bored or realizing the horse was not going to go to the level they want (read, I said dump - not find a good home for a horse where the needs/abilities of the horse do not match the rider/owner).

What do you do with a horse that cannot be ridden due to injury? Are you suddenly not a good horseperson? What if you cannot ride, are you suddenly not a good horseperson?

No, I don’t think that riding is a necessary component of being a good horseperson.

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=Ajierene;3342500]
That’s where I disagree. Horsemanship to me is taking care of the horse properly, whether that be riding or just having lawn ornaments. While many horses like to have a ‘job’, many more just do not feel the need to do anything with their lives other than to eat grass.

My Aunt wanted to ride and so my Uncle bought her a horse. A short few months later, she lost interest. That horse spent the next twenty years of his life with regular vet appointments, good feed, nice grass and occasionally giving a pony ride to one of the cousins. I cannot speak for how happy the horse looked, since I was young and he lived about three hours away at the time.

To me, this is horsemanship - they took on the responsibility of a horse and did not balk at keeping the horse in good health even though they were not riding it. I am not sure why they did not sell it to a good home, which would be equally as reasonable - but the point is, they took up the responsibility and did not dump the horse when bored or realizing the horse was not going to go to the level they want (read, I said dump - not find a good home for a horse where the needs/abilities of the horse do not match the rider/owner).

What do you do with a horse that cannot be ridden due to injury? Are you suddenly not a good horseperson? What if you cannot ride, are you suddenly not a good horseperson?

No, I don’t think that riding is a necessary component of being a good horseperson.[/QUOTE]

That is a good owner not necessarily a good horseman…

[7HL]

@ridgeback;3342524

That is a good owner not necessarily a good horseman…

Actually I think some times we split words here and even combine them to suit our needs.

Someone that is a good horseman / horseperson in my opinion doesn’t necessarily have to show good horsemanship. Again I truly believe the term horsemanship includes use, such as riding or driving.

[Eventer13]

[QUOTE=Annie B.;3342392]
I think that the clinton anderson training method has nothing to do with what kind of discipline you are going to participate in. Clinton anderson works on submission of the horse and gaining the horses respect so that they are easier to work with. He may be a western rider but it matters not what discipline you ride when you use his methods. they work either way.

I went to one of his clinics and learned a lot. when I started doing his stuff with my horse I noticed a rapid change. It really does not matter what discipline. It is just gaining the respect of the horse to do what you ask and be submissive while still being a horse. you use pressure to train the horse instead of force, which helps you gain the horses resepect.[/QUOTE]

He might be good at getting the horse submissive, but some of the methods are conterproductive to dressage (and most English-based disciplines). I would never want my horses to learn to “drop the bit,” as he teaches, they are supposed to work INTO the contact. Once a horse thinks that it needs to give completely to bit pressure, it can be very, very hard to teach them to go properly on the bit.

[ridgeback]

[QUOTE=7HL;3342548]
Actually I think some times we split words here and even combine them to suit our needs.

Someone that is a good horseman / horseperson in my opinion doesn’t necessarily have to show good horsemanship. Again I truly believe the term horsemanship includes use, such as riding or driving.[/QUOTE]

No splitting words here… Being a good horseman is different then being a good rider or a good owner but both could also be good horseman…and I’m using horse"man" in the generic form not refering to men.

[Ajierene]

I’m a bit lost now…and likely everyone will have a different definition for ‘good owner’, ‘good rider’ and ‘good horseman’.

I agree with 7HL - it is splitting and combining words differently according to our own worldviews.

[7HL]

@ridgeback;3342606

No splitting words here… Being a good horseman is different then being a good rider or a good owner but both could also be good horseman…and I’m using horse"man" in the generic form not refering to men.

Sorry to do this … but… What is horsemanship then, what does the term encompass and mean?

[Gucci_Cowgirl]

7HL - not all dressage riders call themselves “classical” either. I actually stay away from that term entirely as it seems like more of a marketing strategy than something that describes you as a trainer/rider.

maybe at one time it meant something more, now it’s used more like a punch line.

and good horsemanship can certainly be achieved without ever riding or driving a horse.

good “riding” can also be achieved without knowing a thing about horsemanship. (although this is not good and the pair won’t be that successful for that long). ever see someone walk into the show arena from their car, jump on their already warmed up horse, ride their course or dressage test extremely accurately, and then hop off, hand the horse away and drive off? I have! and what kills me is that sometimes these people win!

[Gucci_Cowgirl]

@Sister Margarita;3341430

And great marketing-wise pontificators.

I wasn’t marketing!

and/or pontificating…

[7HL]

it is splitting and combining words differently according to our own worldviews.

Even if someone comes down and says this is the meaning, there will be someone somewhere, that will have their own take on the words.

Isn’t the english language fun!