Clinton Anderson training?

Horsemanship usually means having to do with the care, handling, nutrition, and management of horses ‘on the ground’, before you get into the saddle. Care in the case of educated horsemanship would include understanding proper hoof care (shoes, no shoes, what kind of shoes for what purpose, how to screen for good farriers), metabolism, basic conditioning, pasture requirements, stabling safety requirments, veterinary care (as in annual shots, worming, etc.), horse handling requirements, when and when not to call the vet, bandaging knowledge, blanketing knowledge, clipping knowledge, etc… There are varying degrees of knowledge.

May include trailering training and/or longing from the ground, but then you actually begin to get into training.

Specialized horsemanship would go on to stuff like breeding, foaling, stud care, etc…

Everyone will have a different meaning…

Source: WordNet ® 1.7
horsemanship n : skill in handling and riding horses
Source: Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Horsemanship \Horse"man*ship, n. The act or art of riding, and of training and managing horses; manege.

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3342687]
Horsemanship usually means having to do with the care, handling, nutrition, and management of horses ‘on the ground’, before you get into the saddle. Care in the case of educated horsemanship would include understanding proper hoof care (shoes, no shoes, what kind of shoes for what purpose, how to screen for good farriers), metabolism, basic conditioning, pasture requirements, stabling safety requirments, veterinary care (as in annual shots, worming, etc.), horse handling requirements, when and when not to call the vet, bandaging knowledge, blanketing knowledge, clipping knowledge, etc… There are varying degrees of knowledge.

May include trailering training and/or longing from the ground, but then you actually begin to get into training.

Specialized horsemanship would go on to stuff like breeding, foaling, stud care, etc…[/QUOTE]

I would add someone that has the ability to share their knowledge in a way that people will understand and learn from, can match horses to riders, can train each horse differently if needed to bring out the best in that horse…I brought up the word horseman and the way I meant it Baroquepony is correct.

Origianlly posted by ridgeback:

can train each horse differently if needed to bring out the best in that horse…

This is an EXCELLENT addition to the list. I do think good horsemen do not force their horses to go further than a particualr horse can mentally or physically manage, but they still get the most from the horse.

I generally think of good horseman as a person who can take complete and humane care of their horse both from the ground and under saddle, but I know the definition varies a lot.

Often it is divided into on the ground vs in the saddle.

And the definitions of the definitions vary too:lol:

[QUOTE=BaroquePony;3342727]
This is an EXCELLENT addition to the list. I do think good horsemen do not force their horses to go further than a particualr horse can mentally or physically manage, but they still get the most from the horse.

I generally think of good horseman as a person who can take complete and humane care of their horse both from the ground and under saddle, but I know the definition varies a lot.

Often it is divided into on the ground vs in the saddle.

And the definitions of the definitions vary too:lol:[/QUOTE]

I would also add a good horseman knows a horse is a grazing animal and does not keep them stalled only to be ridden for their personal pleasure or goals.

The grazing animal aspect, yes … I would think that comes under humane care.

The only exception to that rule that I think is still humane would be if a rider begns to condition a horse to a certain level for serious competition or riding long distances or something, then often it is better to keep them off grass (except for small amounts) so that the horse can ingest enough high protien (grain) to stay really fit.

I do believe all horses should be born and raised in a large pasture included environment and they should have that retiremnt luxury if possible.

Edit: they should always have a large paddock as part of their daily routine if they are stalled at night or during the day (hot weather).

[QUOTE=KHAT;3335553]
What does everyone think of Clinton Anderson training methods for dressage horses?[/QUOTE]

IMHO there is a big disconnect in the understanding and training of dressage – the only dressage i know of, is the ‘classical’ teachings – forward, energy, etc…

"Veteran eventing coach and Olympian Jim Wofford lists the classic dressage texts he says every rider should (read from PH).

Jim Wofford says that classical dressage theory has been oversimplified, resulting in too much kicking and pulling, sharper bits, tighter nosebands and “other implements of the devil.”

To counteract this trend, Jim recommends reading–or rereading–the classical dressage texts mentioned in the following list. You’ll find they make no mention of kicking and pulling a horse into a frame. They stress relaxation, throughness and quiet hands that don’t pull back on the reins. They emphasize patient and systematic training. And they underscore the need for the rider to have a good position.

Happy reading and riding!

Academic Equitation -General Decarpentry
Advanced Techniques of Dressage - German National Equestrian Federation
The Complete Training of Horse and Rider - Alois Podhajsky
Dressage Riding - Richard Watjen
The Forward Impulse - Piero Santini
Horsemanship - Waldemar Seunig
Riding Logic - Wilhelm Müseler

CA’s methods do work, not only for dressage horses, but also for eventers, hunters and jumpers :yes: Once the horse has the basics of his groundwork and basic riding series – the horse is ready to go in any direction the person wants – be it reining, hunters, or dressage.

For example, his cruising exercise teaches to the horse to carry himself at the gait you want. The passenger exercise teaches the rider an independent seat. Through both of these exercises the horse is learning to go forward. if you can’t get a horse to carry himself forward and freely (i.e. not micromanaging), how do you work on the rest???

CA’s groundwork exercises prepare the horse for the undersaddle exercises – in all his exercises – he over exaggerates the teach and refines the cue once the horse has the concept. I don’t see his methods as getting the horse to be submissive, but more responsive to the riders cues. once you have the basics… you start to refine, same with classical dressage, engage the horse by going forward, not pulling back.

I have been using his program for the last couple years and have noticed a tremendous difference in the way my horses will naturally carrying themselves. Initially, the hardest part of his program – dropping the reins and not micromanaging my horse – To be partners, each has responsibilities.

CA learned to ride and took english lessons (hence he still has shorter stirrups than most western folks :wink: but being bombarded by sit up, heels down, leg back, toe in, hands up, eyes up (all in the same sentence) he developed a program that he could understand. He admits up front, he didn’t develop or create the methods, but he broke the steps down and packaged them so he could – just happens, lots of people understand better when the steps are broken down, but more importantly they are explained.

as far as leading the horse, his program has the person walking next to the horse (between the poll and withers) :wink:

if you have problems on the ground, they will be magnified undersaddle – If you have a horse that doesn’t want to go forward on the ground… do you think it will go forward undersaddle??? sure if you use iron management.

IMO, CA’s program works to have a more willing partner by starting on the ground and then working undersaddle and is very similar to dressage, he stresses forward movement before you can teach refinement.

Clinton is also the only clinician that puts his name on the line by showing with the ‘big boys’ in reining.

Then there are no good horsemen in Southern California :frowning:

Clinton is also the only clinician that puts his name on the line by showing with the ‘big boys’ in reining.

Not totally true. Clinton may come from a reining background, he owns some reining stock and has put on some demos at some reining event he current isn’t placed anywhere. He also isn’t the only that has competed or is presently competeing. I believe Chris Cox competes in cutting horses. Now as far as reining goes, no clinician is placed in 2008 in the standings in NRHA. As for NRCHA, Parelli has placed there and not Clinton.

There is a HUGE difference between a horse learning to “posture” itself, stay “off” the bit and appear to carry itself, and a horse in actual and correct “self carriage”. Avoidance of the bit should never be confused with acceptance of the bit.

CAs methods are pretty much the EXACT OPPOSITE of what would be correct for starting a horse headed for a Dressage career. But of course that is what is “wrong” with Dressage. When done correctly, it looks soooo easy. Easy enough that every yahoo NHer wants to get in on that “market” and reinvent the wheel! :no:

Once they start heading down center line at say, third level or better :lol:…

If you want to poke your horse with a very expensive stick (which you can purchase right there at the clinic!) you will love Clinton Anderson. A few of us watched him work and had to leave before we laughed out loud. A marketing genius! Most of the people I knew who attended are those who can’t seem to stick with a trainer or are so unsure of themselves they drift from gimmick to gimmick. A huge waste of money IMHO.

But Clinton has a nice pink stick for sale!:yes:

Seriously and you pay extra for that.

Sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-fdE1wU6lU&feature=related

:no:

Alright - I’ll throw in my two cents too :smiley:

Going to one of the above mentioned NH trainers really isn’t for me. And it’s not that I disagree with everything they say either.

I got to participate in a Parelli clinic for free, and I found that they do MUCH of what I’ve always done - just by a different name. They had no “MIRACLE” solution for my horse (who isn’t really a problem child anyway) to transform him. He’s an Arabian and I’m already very connected with him due pretty much to his general personality/trainability. I just didn’t feel that money spent at these clinics was worth it for me. I would rather do specialized lessons/clinics in dressage/jumping/eventing etc. (I do have to say the leading w/ the horse behind me threw me for a loop though - just due to safety issues)

If NH works for someone and helps them build confidence to safely train their horse, then BY ALL MEANS it is helpful. I would rather see a horse trained well than abused. And I believe it actually has helped some people at my barn who aren’t naturally horse savvy or able to easily read a horse.

But at the same time, I would encourage those who love NH, to be open to classical dressage methods as well. I think they’ll be very surpised to find the similarities!

And honestly, I really only think NH is helpful as a basis of learning. Whatever field you decide to go on, you need to go back to the roots of that field and research, read, take lessons, watch videos etc. True dressage is incredibly healthy for a horse when done correctly.

[QUOTE=Bronte;3345839]
Sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-fdE1wU6lU&feature=related

:no:[/QUOTE]

To me, that is painful to watch. :cry: That horse is so “brow beaten” it is pathetic. IMO, of course.

[QUOTE=Bronte;3345839]
Sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-fdE1wU6lU&feature=related

:no:[/QUOTE]

What are you saying is so horrible about this video?.

I’ve seen a lot worst.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dVWf-i7qpo&feature=related

I love this video. I don’t like any other NH except him. I don’t believe he would be a good dressage trainer but for what he does I believe he is really great at it. IMO. Heck I wish my horse was trained to read my cues this well. This is his baby Mindy. And you get to see his big stick in action :wink: and some freestyle reining.

[QUOTE=rabicon;3346229]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dVWf-i7qpo&feature=related

I love this video. I don’t like any other NH except him. I don’t believe he would be a good dressage trainer but for what he does I believe he is really great at it. IMO. Heck I wish my horse was trained to read my cues this well. This is his baby Mindy. And you get to see his big stick in action :wink: and some freestyle reining.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I think the video I posted is as far away from correct dressage training as you can get. I actually looked at the one you just posted, but did not think it was relevant to any dressage training.

I disagree with you here. I have a trainer who has helped me begin to master (still on the very low part of the curve!) in hand work, long reining, free lunging. It has been enormously beneficial to me in terms of understanding the effects of my body on my horse’s actions, in understanding how better to use my body, as ways to complement what I do in the saddle. EVERYTHING I have done on the ground has helped me in the saddle, and vice versa, and has also helped my horse.

That being said, years ago we took ONE lesson with a John Lyons certified trainer. I had not had Ted for very long and did not appreciate the extent of his past abuse, or an understanding of his sensitivity. He wanted me to exhaust Ted by chasing him in a round pen by throwing dirt at him - I realize now he wanted Ted to understand that I was dominant by making Ted move away from me, but I knew even then that was not having the desired effect. He also stated, in no uncertain terms, that I was not to ride until we had established everything on the ground. Well, my issues were not in the saddle! So, one lesson, and one lesson only. It took a bit to convert me about the use of groundwork, but once I saw others at my barn, and what they were able to accomplish, I was sold.

[QUOTE=Bronte;3346250]
Yes, I think the video I posted is as far away from correct dressage training as you can get. I actually looked at the one you just posted, but did not think it was relevant to any dressage training.[/QUOTE]

Well thats my point. :wink: I don’t believe he would do well with dressage training. If you watch his shows his belief of collection (or how he puts it) is to have the horse engaged in the rear and on the bit but his horses will fall behind the bit at times and they don’t have the forward motion needed for dressage and he doesn’t train that. There is no impulsion and its just because he is more a wester kind of guy. I like him for the fact that like in the video I posted his horses are not what WP is today. They are the old version where the horse didn’t look like it had a dang broke leg at a lope. Its different worlds WP and dressage but I believe he does a good job on the ground with horses and then undersaddle I believe he does an excellent job in his speciality which is WP, reining, and cutting. Oh, and also he does still compete, I think he is or just did compete in the reining breeders cup this year.