[QUOTE=Ajierene;3347557]
Just made the whole thing annoying. I like most of his techniques, but this is just what I tend to see happening as these trainers get bigger - the ego does also…[/QUOTE]
I haven’t read the entire thread so I may be missing something, but dude, have you met the guy? He is like the nicest person ever.
[ETA: Meaning JL.]
While I like to watch dressage, I am not really in tune to what needs to go into training a dressage horse.
Explain to me how training a horse to be so desensitized, to gunshots, fireworks and stockwhip is going to help?
Some of his methods are right on, but who wants a dead to the world horse?
That would have been great, but it was in a ‘John can do anything’ type of context. To top it off, there was a line waiting to ask him one question per person at the horse expo and he delayed the line just to watch his own video of ‘John Lyons is so great, he can ride any horse’.
That’s a stretch. I think he makes a point to not ride a horse, if it’s note safe. A big part of his philosphy is not to get on a horse, until lots of groundwork is done, and not to rush.
Should this thread be moved??? Doesn’t seem like it’s on the track of the original poster.
[QUOTE=Sithly;3347616]
I haven’t read the entire thread so I may be missing something, but dude, have you met the guy? He is like the nicest person ever.
[ETA: Meaning JL.][/QUOTE]
If you would have read the entire post, I did meet him. He stalled questioning to watch his own video then blew off my friend when she asked a question. I think he has a lot to offer as a trainer, but egocentric. That was just one experience, but you know what they say about first impressions.
He was riding a well trained dressage horse. The point of the video was that he can ride any style and ride it well, which to me is rather egocentric. Especially for someone who never trained under that style.
To put it nicely it’s outright incompatible.
I also personally don’t like his training methods. I went to one of his clinics, and I was so upset by what I saw I left before it was over.
Dressage IMHO is about small building blocks, developing balance, etc and in doing so the horse should remain sound a long time; this is the exact opposite of what I saw CA do at the clinic.
He went out of his way to tell us a story of an owner who tried to get vet & chiro help for a horse who was having problems doing something. Then he made fun of her cause he was able to force the horse to do it. The pain/problem isn’t cured; he just bullied the horse into submission. But he sure had a good laugh at horse owners who gasp spend money on a vet. CA’s attitude seems to be: why fix a lameness if you can just force a horse to keep working anyway? They’re just faking it anyway!
He also makes fun of people wearing helmets. He gave unsolicited advice to his audience about how only novices need them, how they don’t make you safer, blah blah blah. Tell that to the lady I saw go off her horse at the western gaming show who was just puttering around in the warmup area – she stopped breathing for a moment & remained unconcious until the medevac copter came for her.
Don’t get me started on him! :lol:
He was riding a well trained dressage horse. The point of the video was that he can ride any style and ride it well, which to me is rather egocentric. Especially for someone who never trained under that style.
The question is… was he really riding it well? And could any person that was an accomplished rider, ride a well trained dressage horse well?
[QUOTE=7HL;3348069]
The question is… was he really riding it well? And could any person that was an accomplished rider, ride a well trained dressage horse well?[/QUOTE]
No, he wasn’t riding the horse well. Being in the ring with a dressage rider, you could definitely see the difference. Even for the untrained eye. No, no one not riding in a discipling will ride the discipline well - this goes for hunter, reining, dressage, jumpers, etc. I have seen people hop in ‘strange’ tack just for fun and not look great. They were not trying to say that they could do anything well, though. They weren’t trying to say they looked as good and had as good control over the horse as someone trained in the discipline.
[QUOTE=ridgeback;3346801]
I think you need to understand cutting and reining to know that horse isn’t brow beaten. Imagine what other disciplines would say if they saw a video of Anky’s type of training without truly understanding that discipline…JMO of course.[/QUOTE]
Ah, but we do have a very good understanding of WP and Reining as both Craig and I had sucessful backgrounds in those fields, BEFORE we made the switch to Dressage. The training methods that were used (if you wanted to be competitive) is exactly why we no longer “do” western.
Watching WP, Reining or just CA doing a demo proves that nothing has changed. The peanut roller brow beaten look is here to stay.
A lady at my stables DIED last Saturday from a head injury after falling while riding her horse on the trail. She left behind a son and a daughter 
You have never seen so many helmets on as you will right now at my barn.
I saw the video and other videos. I actually quite like the way he rides. The horse seems to understand his job, and is soft and focused, and on the aids. I find the horse seems more supple, conditioned (bio-mechanically), athletic and workman like than his other NH counter parts.
He rides a different discipline than us, I see no point discussing his style of training… apart from the fact that it is not dressage.
I do not understand why dressage riders would follow him, apart from an appreciation of good riding of another discipline, and maybe some ground work technique where applicable. If you want your horse to look like his, you should do reining, not dressage. Why is it so hard to understand?
Regarding helmet… dressage riders are just as bad… but I do believe it’s changing. My instructor rides with a helmet now… incredible.
MayS you said he forced a horse to do something that the owner had a vet and chiro out for and the horse wouldn’t do it for her and ob. the vet and chiro found nothing because he will NOT take a horse that has any medical condition on (believe me my walker is up to go next month for some issues to his clinic). So ob. the horse probably needed a leader to take control and be herd boss and the owner wasn’t doing it. I have never seen CA take a lame horse or one that possible has some health issues and make them do something that they shouldn’t :no: Yes, he is aggresive with horses but I see his horses that love him and respect him for that. Not like a lot that I see around here at shows that are running all over their owners and pitching fits because they don’t wanna do something. He has his horses respect and they know their job and isn’t that what we want from a horse before even saddling??? 
Respect is key IMO and believe me he gets it from horses and its not because its lame and he forces him to do it, its because of the time and work he spends to teach them. Now Chris Cox and Parreli and all those idiots I don’t like 
but CA I do have to defend he is not that bad he is just NOT a dressage rider nor trainer and for some reason people can’t understand that. Disiciplines are different and thats how it goes. Did you ever see the show where clinton works with Stephan Bradly and his event horses. He did a pretty good job and if he was so dang horrible why would Stephen even let him touch one of his horses?
[QUOTE=Ajierene;3347165]
I was thinking more in lines of relaxing their leg into the longer stirrup and sitting back/deep…It might be more of a hunter thing (about the sitting back/deep).
When I first started riding dressage, my trainer was impressed at my seat coming from the hunter/equitation world. She had trained more than one former hunter. It became clear to her when I told her I spent equal time riding Western growing up.
The only way to know for sure is to test the theory!
Now we just need a Grand Prix Jumper and Grand Prix dressage rider! Who can we get?[/QUOTE]
In a sense, the theory was tested long ago, not with a dressage rider/reiner but a hunter/jumper rider/reiner. Have we all forgotten Jimmy Williams - who trained jumpers to Grand Prix level and ALSO trained a champion hackmore/stock horse?
Yep, I fell back on my western as much as my hunt seat eq training when I started learning dressage. My trainer asked “have you ever tried sitting a trot?” Hah, I said, there’s no posting in western… yer butt has to learn to take it! (actually, of course I didn’t say that, lol!).
But of course it’s different. Damn, I see the western trainer giving lessons and it doesn’t even look like how I used to ride- they are all leaning back btv and their legs are forward. We always tried to have a nice straight line, a la dressage. Heels down, toes forward.
The difference is in the legs. Well, and all of the aids are different, lol!
What I mean is that someone can ride western in a dressage saddle- it might feel funny, but they can still get the job done. But not on a dressage horse
I think most upper level dressage riders (not talking the wannabe DQs here) would not find riding another style too hard. Because the one thing upper level riders must have is an independent seat. An independent seat does not mean sitting still and doing nothing
Having seen the 3 minutes I could handle of CA last night on RFDTV, I’m going to have to say no thanks.
He was working on starting a 2 year old, and the portion I saw, he was working it in the round pen. Where it really got disgusting was that the poor thing was so rushed and out of balance that every time he got it to canter, it was cross cantering. No kidding, at least 2 times to the right and 3 times to the left when he switched directions. In fact, I didn’t see the poor thing canter correctly once.
I do not claim to be any wealth of knowledge on starting the young ones, but I thought that you would never, ever want to encourage that. He did not stop the horse to correct, did not even mention it to the crowd (or camera). He just chased the horse into a canter (cross canter), and when it broke gait from imbalance in the cross canter, he chased it back into the canter - and it was cross firing again, naturally.
[QUOTE=jackalini;3348614]
I do not claim to be any wealth of knowledge on starting the young ones, but I thought that you would never, ever want to encourage that. He did not stop the horse to correct, did not even mention it to the crowd (or camera). He just chased the horse into a canter (cross canter), and when it broke gait from imbalance in the cross canter, he chased it back into the canter - and it was cross firing again, naturally.[/QUOTE]
I am not saying this is correct, but I do remember my mare getting wound up in a lesson and counter cantering, then cross cantering on the circle. I was told to keep her going until she figured out that it wasn’t ‘fun’. This was when she was first started. After a few times, she corrected herself.
Not having watched the video, I cannot say for sure.
Sandy M - When I mentioned difficulty in people riding two disciplines, I was not talking about training in two disciplines, I was talking about people thinking that because they rode upper level in one, they could hop on and ride upper level in a different one. The person you mentioned - he trained in both, he didn’t decide one day to hop on and go to a National Reining Championship and win. He started small in both and worked his way up.
NoDQHere - all disciplines, when done properly, require and independent seat. What I see upper level dressage riders have difficulty with (if they have never ridden western) is the difference in aids (there are a lot) and learning how to get out of the horse’s mouth. There is almost no contact and a good reining horse will do a slidding stop because you sat back a bit, and barely touched the reins. Not that they cannot learn - just that they cannot get on a championship reining horse and win a competition at that level. Similarly a reining rider can learn dressage, but not get on an upper level dressage horse and win at that level.
CA believes his own hype. That’s his biggest issue.
If anyone can beg, borrow, or steal the 2007 Road to the Horse DVDs you may get to see Clinton harass, belittle, and twist around its own axle, a good minded little unstarted colt. The horse had pool noodles, hanging off him, decorated splint boots with crap hanging off of them, had tolerated the stock whip, the leaf blower, the cap gun, etc etc, while CA drones On and On and ON about what a nice mind the colt has, going to be a nice ladies or kids horse blah blah blah right up until he turned his back on him to get yet another noise maker or some such…The colt came after Clinton, teeth bared, murderous. Only the gasp of the crowd clued Clinton in to wheel around, catch the colt across the face/neck/chest with his dressage whip, I think it was…and get the colt to turn away and quit. It was DISGUSTING. Never again did he mention that nice mind. Good thing, because he scrambled it. There was almost a rumble in the ladies rest room right after, many women storming about, having told Tootie Bland (organizer) they’d never come to another RTTH with that jackass in it) while his numb followers kept saying things like there’s no need to be so disrespectful, etc. Oh hell yes there is. His gargantuan ego took gross advantage of that little animal, and ruined him. COlt had never been handled and this is what he gets- circus tricks and loud shouts of how great I, Clinton Anderson, is, see me? see how GREAT I am???
Meanwhile Chris Cox won it. Never did any of that stupid ****. Got in, established a little trust, and built quietly on it. Let his colt rest far above and beyond the required rest periods, and pointedly made it clear he wanted to horse ready to go do a job, go OUT, go somewhere, not make a circus animal out of him. Now Chris is a tough toad- not all warm and fuzzy, likely a bit of a horse’s ass…but he’s 700 times the horseman Mr Anderson ever thought about being.
Clinton is a fool.
[QUOTE=Ajierene;3348655]
I am not saying this is correct, but I do remember my mare getting wound up in a lesson and counter cantering, then cross cantering on the circle. I was told to keep her going until she figured out that it wasn’t ‘fun’. This was when she was first started. After a few times, she corrected herself.
Not having watched the video, I cannot say for sure.[/QUOTE]
To hopefully better explain, it seemed to me that he wasn’t giving the horse a chance to canter correctly. He had it going around unbalanced and quick and was chasing it into the canter. It looked like this little one on TV was just not ready for all of that yet. It looked like the little thing wanted to canter correctly, but she just couldn’t get it together right at that speed, in that round pen and that situation.
It bothered me immensely that he didn’t even mention it as being incorrect or give a reason as to why he was allowing it - he just went on with his speech.
Jackalini- I see your point. In retraining thoroughbreds off the track, we often circled a horse that started taking off because it would fall off balance and trot on it’s own. It was better than hauling on the horse and ‘arguing’, basically let the horse decide on his own that such speed were not in his best interest anymore. These are mostly young horses that raced a few times and did not do well, so I am not saying racing thoroughbreds are off - balanced and horrible - but they are not asked to balance on say a 20M circle when racing.
On the other hand, we did try this with one horse and found out she balances better on the circle - that made for some interesting rethinking on training…
I see what you are saying - a lot of young horses are not balanced enough to canter on the circle and asking a horse to do that can lead to problems later in training.
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