ClipClopNYC '14 is officially on hold

[TarheelJD]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7177915]
So Gentle Giants has the NYC carriage horse which was shipped off to New Holland when he needed $600 surgery. He was purchased for $360, had the surgery, and is now sound and being used for trail rides. Gentle Giants rescue has him. so someone needs to adopt him and give him a good home.

He’s Marcello, Hoof #3287.

So much for “retiring” carriage horses. His next stop was a canadian slaughter plant.[/QUOTE]

I would find this relevant to the discussion at hand if the following facts were also present:

1. Who was the NYC carriage industry affiliated owner of the horse?
2. To whom did the NYC carriage industry affiliated owner sell the horse (another party or New Holland)?

And further to a point I made earlier - individual actions do not apply to an entire industry.

[Tha_Ridge]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;7177940]
The bill reads ‘the owner shall’ sell or donate to approved buyers or sanctuaries.

Shall in legalese means must…as in you have to do this, no way to opt out.
That means you cannot just keep the white elephant, I mean horse, but you have to give it up. And of course since the approved homes has to sign documents that the horse will never be worked ‘for the duration of it’s natural life’ you made a valuable work horse into a worthless pasture ornament with the stroke of a pen.[/QUOTE]

Yes, when the owner makes the decision to sell or donate the horse.

[TarheelJD]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177949]
It is a DEAD PROPOSED Bill that never made it out of committee. Talk about beating a dead horse.

It never even had a bill # assigned. It was proposed, referred to the committee it is dead, gone, finished.[/QUOTE]

Dead until January, 2014.

[suz]

how will carriage drivers find these magical sanctuaries when their job is pulled out from underneath them?
and for that matter if their livelihood is taken away from them how will carriage drivers support their horses until they find a retirement home?

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7177915]
So Gentle Giants has the NYC carriage horse which was shipped off to New Holland when he needed $600 surgery. He was purchased for $360, had the surgery, and is now sound and being used for trail rides. Gentle Giants rescue has him. so someone needs to adopt him and give him a good home.

He’s Marcello, Hoof #3287.

So much for “retiring” carriage horses. His next stop was a canadian slaughter plant.[/QUOTE]

If he was sold for $360 he was not going to slaughter.

Provide details. When was this? What kind of surgery did he need?

I have PERSONALLY spoken to representatives of New Holland, Mel Hoover, Finger Lakes and have spoken to countless rescues that attend these sales. The information I have received is that they hardly ever see a hoof branded horse in the auction. They basically said that years go by and then one might show up.

Also consider that all horses going into the city for the carriage trade, even if they are only there for a week long traffic trial, must be hoof branded. If the horse doesn’t have the training or disposition the carriage industry wants, the horse goes back to his owner (usually the Amish as a great majority of carriage horses are Amish trained). what the Amish do with them afterwards is anybody’s guess.

I am now more certain than ever that Forel is feeding C&C information via private messages. Forel is too cowardly and as someone already pointed out, if she is private messaging now it is on company time.

[MistyBlue]

The department shall be notified of the transfer of ownership or other disposition of a licensed horse within ten days thereafter. Such notice shall include the date of disposition and if sold in New York city, the name and address of the buyer or other transferee and such other information as the commissioner may prescribe. A horse shall not be sold or disposed of except in a humane manner. - See more at: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/ADC/17/3/3/17-329#sthash.pzlw6eCa.dpuf

Current.
Who determines humane manner.
Since the supposed reason for banning is “cruel to be a carriage horse for hire” then driving is inhumane? Only driving in a city? Only driving for money? Must it be a combo of driving + city + for money = cruelty?

Or is it the “working in hot conditions” or “not having group turnout in pastures?” Because gotta say I’ve been in and to plenty of shows that classes were not cancelled due to it being 95 degrees outside. And plenty of horses don’t get group turnout or pasture turnout. My horses don’t get pasture turnout. Neither do horses in AZ, Utah, Southern Cal, etc.
At this time carriage driving does not meet the state’s laws of animal cruelty. But yet…

So keep believing the “it will only happen the way I think it will, it will only happen in a way I personally find fits with my specific idea of humane and not effect anyone else!”
That worked so fabulously with the slaughter issue.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Fenfox1;7177941]
Yep, because next time around it could be you and your industry. We are all horse people here. We should stand united, not divided. Fine, you don’t like city carriage rides don’t take one. Fine, you think 3-day eventing is abusive, don’t participate/attend. Think rodeos are cruel, don’t go.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me[/QUOTE]

Highly inappropriate reference to the Holocaust.

[Paragon]

The bill that the anti- groups were most proud of has indeed been languishing for years. I myself was most familiar with was Intro 86A.

But I don’t think it takes a rocket scientist to see that one of the main reasons these movements stalled was because NYC had a mayor who absolutely WOULD NOT entertain the notion of taking the carriages away. With a mayor who is on-board with the ban, as the candidates claim to be, the situation is very different.

So why horse people are fighting so hard to pretend this issue doesn’t exist is absolutely beyond me.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=pony4me;7176955]
The NYC carriage horses live their lives under a microscope, and with a spotlight shining on them. Now, unfortunately, both the Democrat and Republican mayoral candidates are anti-carriage. The Democrat, especially, has promised to ban the carriages pretty much as soon as he gets in office. The anti-carriage groups have assured the gullible non-horsey NYC residents that the horses will be comfortably retired to “sanctuaries” where they will be cared for the rest of their lives. Anyone got enough land for about 200 drafties? C’mon, now, speak up! This is a very unfortunate situation for the carriage owners and operators. People who are voting have very little knowledge of horses and horse care. They don’t realize that it’s almost impossible to find sanctuary care for all those horses. And for most voters, there are other reasons that they favor one candidate or the other. Overall, the carriage issue makes very little difference to a large number of voters, but it will destroy the lives of the people in the industry. It’s the perfect political storm for the carriage people and I’m very worried for them.[/QUOTE]

Soooooooo . . . the obvious thing would be for Ms. Flynn and her fellow teamsters to call up the New York Times and ask if anyone would like to do a major FEATURE ARTICLE that would expose for all time the realities of the carriage business and the absurdities pitched by the anti’s. Papers looooove controversy–it’s what keeps readers’ eyes in front of the ads. Get your day in the limelight and correct the record! Most of the “constituents” are reasonable people who are intelligent and well-educated. Show the situation for the money-motivated mess it really is, and a lot of the Earnestly-Concerned will shrug off the next PETA broadsheet. Fight fire with fire!

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;7177977]

I am now more certain than ever that Forel is feeding C&C information via private messages. Forel is too cowardly and as someone already pointed out, if she is private messaging now it is on company time.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what some of us have been talking about. I disagree with C&C many times, most notably AC4H, however, she is pretty well respected on this board and known to offer assistance to many people with horses in need.

There seems to be a need to paint anyone who disagrees with the RARA, in Forel’s camp brush. I don’t think it’s working for you except for the ones who are already firmly in agreement. You are turning people off with the rants…all of you.

Anything posted is easily available via google. And the anti-carriage people seem to have mastered using google website indexing, so their stuff always floats to the top.

[Paragon]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7177994]
Soooooooo . . . the obvious thing would be for Ms. Flynn and her fellow teamsters to call up the New York Times and ask if anyone would like to do a major FEATURE ARTICLE that would expose for all time the realities of the carriage business and the absurdities pitched by the anti’s. Papers looooove controversy–it’s what keeps readers’ eyes in front of the ads. Get your day in the limelight and correct the record! Most of the “constituents” are reasonable people who are intelligent and well-educated. Show the situation for the money-motivated mess it really is, and a lot of the Earnestly-Concerned will shrug off the next PETA broadsheet. Fight fire with fire![/QUOTE]

You’re right, it’s the obvious thing to do, and it’s been tried. The major media outlets aren’t very interested. :no: A few of the minor outlets have been picking it up and connecting the dots, but the articles don’t get nearly enough traction.

[TarheelJD]

[QUOTE=Tha Ridge;7177967]
Yes, when the owner makes the decision to sell or donate the horse.[/QUOTE]

When this ends up in court, it will be interesting to see what arguments are made re: the interpretation of this language (assuming it is in the bill that is ultimately passed next year).

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=Amwrider;7177977]

I am now more certain than ever that Forel is feeding C&C information via private messages. Forel is too cowardly and as someone already pointed out, if she is private messaging now it is on company time.[/QUOTE]

Well, birds of a feather tend to flock together.

ETA: If the carriage drivers are represented by a union I would think that union would be involved. Teamsters aren’t known to be shrinking violets.

[Paragon]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177997]
There seems to be a need to paint anyone who disagrees with the RARA, in Forel’s camp brush. I don’t think it’s working for you except for the ones who are already firmly in agreement. You are turning people off with the rants…all of you.[/QUOTE]

I received word a couple years ago that someone on these COTH forums (who is posting on this very thread) reported me to the carriage association as a spy for the RARAs. They were wrong. I got over it.

Can we move on now?

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Paragon;7178007]
I received word a couple years ago that someone on these COTH forums (who is posting on this very thread) reported me to the carriage association as a spy for the RARAs. They were wrong. I got over it.

Can we move on now?[/QUOTE]

Then why keep throwing out the accusations? Move on indeed.

[Fenfox1]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177986]
Highly inappropriate reference to the Holocaust.[/QUOTE]

The quote is used anytime one group attacks another and no one stands up.
The quotation stems from Niemöller’s lectures during the early postwar period. Different versions of the quotation exist. These can be attributed to the fact that Niemöller spoke extemporaneously and in a number of settings. It has many versions.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177986]
Highly inappropriate reference to the Holocaust.[/QUOTE]

Sorry that you feel this way, but unfortunately this is how the game is being played.
The people who oppose use of animals on moral grounds have always stated that the carriage horses would only be the first step.
The next low hanging fruit is just around the corner.

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=Paragon;7177990]

So why horse people are fighting so hard to pretend this issue doesn’t exist is absolutely beyond me.[/QUOTE]

They’re appeasers. They keep feeding the alligator hoping it eats them last.

[Amwrider]

regarding the gentle giants Marcelo situation…this is a horse that had a roaring problem so the owner gave him to someone that someone turned around and took him to the auction to turn a quick buck on a horse they got for free. (I am sure this never happens outside of the carriage industry- insert sarcasm). when gentle giants obtained Marcelo members of the New York State horse Council and the carriage industry all donated money for his surgery

[Paragon]

[QUOTE=JSwan;7178027]
They’re appeasers. They keep feeding the alligator hoping it eats them last.[/QUOTE]

It’s fascinating to watch some of the threads on their boards. If I had a dollar for every time they turned in on themselves and needed to be “contained” by Forel, I’d be a comfortable lady.

It happened most notably after Hickstead died, with posters attacking those members who rode horses. Admins acted quickly to get it under control, but the riders had already seen the reality of the situation. They were abusers and murderers, too.