I’m trying to parse out the facts of the matter.
http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S5013-2011
This is the only ‘bill’ I can find about this and I don’t see where it says the owners will no longer own their horses.
Can someone point me in the right direction of that actual bill that says so, or where this one does?
Thanks
I do not know the history of Juliet so I cannot answer to that but I can easily see a halter mix-up with a wrong name plate on it. I am surprised that in all of the lies that I have heard from the anti-group over the years, this is the first I have heard of this one.
I have Saddlebreds and Morgans that compete in saddle seat disciplines (and hunter, western, driving, etc.) and we use a lot of acrylic on hooves because when a saddle seat horse throws a shoe, there is usually a bit of hoof wall that comes off with it…because our shoes tend to be heavier and nails are nailed higher up into the hoof wall. No matter how good your farrier is, you can always tell when the acrylic is on the hoof. The same goes for the wood putty that is used on smaller chips and to fill up old nail holes. You can tell it is there, there is a color difference and a texture difference.
Nice try Lizzie and Cloudy.
The anti group thrives on spreading lies and rumors and the RARAs and FARTS also post threats, horrible, horrible threats. You would not believe what Eva and others in the industry go through…really. So for those of you who can’t stand her “attitude” then just go off and leave this thread alone instead of continuing to pick at her because of her “attitude.”
I hope she forgives me for this because she didn’t really want it out there but just a couple of months ago she had a very, very nasty physical threat made to her family at her HOME and the police basically ignored it.
You do NOT know what these horse loving carriage people go through just to carry out their work with their beloved horses.
If you have your horses, your family and your job threatened by people that spread lies, by people that think any work with animals is abusive and exploitative, if you get death threats because of your involvement with horses, if you come home from school with your daughter to find fake bombs left at your house by Animal Rights lunatics because you work with horses, how would YOU feel?
I think Eva is just completely overwhelmed right now and needs our support instead of people jumping all over her because she maybe got a little snappish at people —snappish at the SAME people that harass her every time she posts anything.
[QUOTE=JSwan;7177808]
In the end; even though the law is clearly unconstitutional -(you cannot be deprived of property without due process) the victims lose anyway. Because they just don’t have the money to fight back. It’s really all about money. (in this case it’s the literal truth because this is a thinly veiled land grab by a developer)[/QUOTE]
This should be repeated. Whether you like carriage rides, hate them, or are indifferent… you should be very upset by any law that removes property (horses) from owners with no reasonable recourse. If carriages in NYC are bad, get rid of the industry - don’t go taking people’s horses away from them. (But if you want to claim they’re bad, we need actual facts and not hysteria). If there are bad individuals, get rid of them.
But taking someone’s horse, a horse who isn’t starved or beaten or abandoned, just because you don’t like their segment of the horse industry… that’s just… wrong.
[QUOTE=cowgirljenn;7177864]
This should be repeated. Whether you like carriage rides, hate them, or are indifferent… you should be very upset by any law that removes property (horses) from owners with no reasonable recourse. If carriages in NYC are bad, get rid of the industry - don’t go taking people’s horses away from them. (But if you want to claim they’re bad, we need actual facts and not hysteria). If there are bad individuals, get rid of them.
But taking someone’s horse, a horse who isn’t starved or beaten or abandoned, just because you don’t like their segment of the horse industry… that’s just… wrong.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree. But Angela’s right, where is the bill that would demand confiscation? Or is this just rhetoric from the anti-carriage crowd. I can’t find a bill that includes it.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177869]
I totally agree. But Angela’s right, where is the bill that would demand confiscation? Or is this just rhetoric from the anti-carriage crowd. I can’t find a bill that includes it.[/QUOTE]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321638
Yes, this is about taking the horses away form their legal owners.
This mayoral race is just a different angle of attack.
Any which way you turn it, the carriage drivers are being bend over.
If the new mayor gets his way, the horses will be gone, when the horses are gone, there won’t be a reason to oppose the law, making sure they won’t ever come back.
Please, Laura, don’t act like this is news to you.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;7177873]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321638[/QUOTE]
Thank you.
Some do have a very, very conveniently very short memory.
Do not trust any animal rights extremist driven agendas and the lobbying they do pushing their bills and regulations.
They all have the ultimate intention of eliminating ALL animal uses, that includes horses.:no:
[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7177838]
I’m trying to parse out the facts of the matter.
http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S5013-2011
This is the only ‘bill’ I can find about this and I don’t see where it says the owners will no longer own their horses.
Can someone point me in the right direction of that actual bill that says so, or where this one does?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
I haven’t found any links to the actual text of the amendment - may have to go to Westlaw for that. But I found this summary:
Thanks to everyone who put the pressure on the NY City Council, we finally have a bill – Intro 670 – that amends Section 17-329 Disposition of Licensed Horse of the Administrative code, which will require that the owner sell or donate the horse to either private individuals or a duly incorporated animal sanctuary, with a signed assurance that the horse will not be sold and shall be kept solely as a companion animal and not employed in another horse-drawn carriage business or as a work horse and that the horse would not be sold to auctions or slaughter.
~ http://www.change.org/petitions/save-nyc-carriage-horses-from-kill-auctions
[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7177838]
I’m trying to parse out the facts of the matter.
http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S5013-2011
This is the only ‘bill’ I can find about this and I don’t see where it says the owners will no longer own their horses.
Can someone point me in the right direction of that actual bill that says so, or where this one does?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
Open the PDF contained withing the Legislation Text tab:
I found the bill you’re talking about. Here’s a link, you have to click on Legislative text to read the proposed bill. It’s a pdf file. Yes, it does say that the horses, when disposed of, have to be sold to a non work home and not for slaughter. However, it was just a PROPOSED bill that appears to have never made it out of committee. In other words, it is dead, dead, dead, much like many other absurd bills that never make it out of committee.
And, it died in September 2011. Two years ago.
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7176266]
You should have allowed inspections of the carriage horses by independent parties. .[/QUOTE]
I’ve been in every stable in Manhatten over the years.(even the ones that are gone now). I represent no agency. Merely curious, one horse person to another.I never, NOT ONCE, saw anything out of line. Horses all had huge amounts of hay in front of them, several times farriers happened to be present, manure trucked off, horses being washed, etc… By and large I have seen far more neglect and ignorant care in backyard owners and (some)boarding barns.
Anybody want to buy hoof #3287, NYC carriage horse sent off to New Holland?
So Gentle Giants has the NYC carriage horse which was shipped off to New Holland when he needed $600 surgery. He was purchased for $360, had the surgery, and is now sound and being used for trail rides. Gentle Giants rescue has him. so someone needs to adopt him and give him a good home.
He’s Marcello, Hoof #3287.
So much for “retiring” carriage horses. His next stop was a canadian slaughter plant.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177898]
I found the bill you’re talking about. Here’s a link, you have to click on Legislative text to read the proposed bill. It’s a pdf file. Yes, it does say that the horses, when disposed of, have to be sold to a non work home and not for slaughter. However, it was just a PROPOSED bill that appears to have never made it out of committee. In other words, it is dead, dead, dead, much like many other absurd bills that never make it out of committee.
And, it died in September 2011. Two years ago.[/QUOTE]
Not to mention the fact that the bill NEVER said that horses were going to be seized. It was simply a means to create a paper trail to keep retired carriage horses out of bad situations.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177898]
I found the bill you’re talking about. Here’s a link, you have to click on Legislative text to read the proposed bill. It’s a pdf file. Yes, it does say that the horses, when disposed of, have to be sold to a non work home and not for slaughter. However, it was just a PROPOSED bill that appears to have never made it out of committee. In other words, it is dead, dead, dead, much like many other absurd bills that never make it out of committee.
And, it died in September 2011. Two years ago.[/QUOTE]
The bill banning the carriages also did not make it out of committee, and is currently dead.
The issue is, with a new Mayor and new Council leadership set to take over next year, these bills are going to be resurected, and when they are, they now have the support to pass.
They will face a court challnege by the industry once they are passed, and a very expensive legal battle will follow.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;7177873]
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321638
Yes, this is about taking the horses away form their legal owners.
This mayoral race is just a different angle of attack.
Any which way you turn it, the carriage drivers are being bend over.
If the new mayor gets his way, the horses will be gone, when the horses are gone, there won’t be a reason to oppose the law, making sure they won’t ever come back.
Please, Laura, don’t act like this is news to you.[/QUOTE]
There’s a huge difference between banning and confiscation.
[QUOTE=Tha Ridge;7177916]
Not to mention the fact that the bill NEVER said that horses were going to be seized. It was simply a means to create a paper trail to keep retired carriage horses out of bad situations.[/QUOTE]
The bill reads ‘the owner shall’ sell or donate to approved buyers or sanctuaries.
Shall in legalese means must…as in you have to do this, no way to opt out.
That means you cannot just keep the white elephant, I mean horse, but you have to give it up. And of course since the approved homes has to sign documents that the horse will never be worked ‘for the duration of it’s natural life’ you made a valuable work horse into a worthless pasture ornament with the stroke of a pen.
[QUOTE=cowgirljenn;7177864]
This should be repeated. Whether you like carriage rides, hate them, or are indifferent… you should be very upset by any law that removes property (horses) from owners with no reasonable recourse. If carriages in NYC are bad, get rid of the industry - don’t go taking people’s horses away from them. (But if you want to claim they’re bad, we need actual facts and not hysteria). If there are bad individuals, get rid of them.
But taking someone’s horse, a horse who isn’t starved or beaten or abandoned, just because you don’t like their segment of the horse industry… that’s just… wrong.[/QUOTE]
Yep, because next time around it could be you and your industry. We are all horse people here. We should stand united, not divided. Fine, you don’t like city carriage rides don’t take one. Fine, you think 3-day eventing is abusive, don’t participate/attend. Think rodeos are cruel, don’t go.
First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
[QUOTE=cloudyandcallie;7177915]
So Gentle Giants has the NYC carriage horse which was shipped off to New Holland when he needed $600 surgery. He was purchased for $360, had the surgery, and is now sound and being used for trail rides. Gentle Giants rescue has him. so someone needs to adopt him and give him a good home.
He’s Marcello, Hoof #3287.
So much for “retiring” carriage horses. His next stop was a canadian slaughter plant.[/QUOTE]
Don’t know where that is coming from, but “y’all” be careful how you respond to that baiting.:eek:
This is not a re-hash of the old carriage threads, “just sayin”.:no:
This.
I’ve been browsing these threads for years yet this is my first post. I have questions based on my experience applying for a carriage driving job in Chicago and some serious concerns it raised in me as a horse person. I have been trying to keep an open mind all these years as I do fully support the concept of horses having jobs, but the vitriol directed at those that don’t come out with immediate support of the NY carriage horse is extremely off-putting. Without fail it always puts a sour taste in my mouth.
I understand there is great frustration but the pro-carriage group would be better served to not fall for the bait and be lulled into personal attacks. Lurkers that do not know that the battle of C&C v. michaleenflynn has been going on for quite some time will be very taken aback by such a personal and unprofessional response, and you cannot afford to alienate those that are of your own ilk. Stick to the facts and stick to them broken record style.
This is why politicians have campaign managers, to temper emotional & unscripted responses that could inadvertently be used against them. And, since you are essentially fighting a political battle, this could be why they seem to be gaining support in droves while your own facebook page stands stagnant with a few thousand fans.
Now to decide whether I’ll be too scared to come back and check on this post later…
They have amended the law which changes it as follows (see bolding) You don’t see a problem with that?
S 17-329 Disposition of licensed horse. A. The department shall benotified of the transfer of ownership or other disposition of a licensedhorse within [ten] FIVE days thereafter. Such notice shall include thedate of disposition and [if sold in New York city,] the name and addressof the buyer or other transferee and such other information as thecommissioner may prescribe. B. A horse shall not be sold or disposed of except in a humanemanner[.], WHICH, FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS SUBCHAPTER SHALL MEAN ONE OFTHE FOLLOWING: 1. THE OWNER SHALL SELL OR DONATE THE HORSE TO A PRIVATE INDIVIDUALWHO SIGNS AN ASSURANCE THAT THE HORSE WILL NOT BE SOLD AND SHALL BE KEPTSOLELY AS A COMPANION ANIMAL AND NOT EMPLOYED IN ANOTHER HORSE-DRAWNCARRIAGE BUSINESS OR AS A WORK HORSE AND WILL BE CARED FOR HUMANELY FORTHE REMAINDER OF THE HORSE’S NATURAL LIFE; OR 2. THE OWNER SHALL SELL OR DONATE THE HORSE TO A DULY INCORPORATEDANIMAL SANCTUARY OR DULY INCORPORATED ANIMAL PROTECTION ORGANIZATIONWHOSE PRESIDENT OR EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR SIGNS AN ASSURANCE THAT THE HORSEWILL NOT BE SOLD AND SHALL BE KEPT SOLELY AS A COMPANION ANIMAL AND NOTEMPLOYED IN ANOTHER HORSE-DRAWN CARRIAGE BUSINESS OR AS A WORK HORSE ANDWILL BE CARED FOR HUMANELY FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE HORSE’S NATURALLIFE. 3. RECORDS INDICATING THE NAME, ADDRESS AND TELEPHONE NUMBER OF THEPRIVATE INDIVIDUAL, DULY INCORPORATED ANIMAL SANCTUARY OR DULY INCORPO-RATED ANIMAL PROTECTION ORGANIZATION TO WHOM THE HORSE WAS SOLD ORDONATED TOGETHER WITH THE ASSURANCE SPECIFIED ABOVE SHALL BE SENT BY THEOWNER TO THE DEPARTMENT WITHIN FIVE DAYS AFTER SUCH SALE OR DONATION. ACOPY OF SUCH RECORD SHALL ALSO BE MAINTAINED AT THE STABLE. S 5. Subdivisions g, h and l of section 17-330 of the administrativecode of the city of New York, subdivisions g and l as amended by locallaw number 10 of the city of New York for the year 2010, and subdivisionh as added by local law number 2 of the city of New York for the year1994, are amended to read as followsNote- they are still including the
[QUOTE=Angela Freda;7177838]
I’m trying to parse out the facts of the matter.
http://open.nysenate.gov/legislation/bill/S5013-2011
This is the only ‘bill’ I can find about this and I don’t see where it says the owners will no longer own their horses.
Can someone point me in the right direction of that actual bill that says so, or where this one does?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
Yes, the selling as a companion animal is in there again on the state bill. I don’t know what the status is.
However, if not acted upon, it will die at the end of the year, just like the others. It’s clearly restraint of trade and unconstitutional. I’ve said that before, I didn’t realize it was added to the current 2013 bill.
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