ClipClopNYC '14 is officially on hold

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=MHM;7177582]
If you’re not trying to influence people, why are you posting here??

I don’t see an answer to my question about Juliet. Perhaps you could specify or quote the post where you answered it? Or simply answer the question again?

Is it true Juliet was wearing another horse’s identification tags when she died?[/QUOTE]

MHM I googled it just for the heck of it. The ONLY place I can find reference to Juliet wearing another horses halter was on Forel’s own page with a tiny news article. Which simply calls the horse Rusty it says nothing about a halter.

Every subsequent article discussing the incident identifies the horse as Juliet.

I’ve never known the media to jump the shark and publish something wrong in haste to get circulated.:lol:

Forel goes on to insinuate the driver offered up the wrong name. Yet the interview of the driver he clearly identifies the horse as Juliet. So why do we assume it was the driver who called her Rusty … perhaps it was another driver or bystander who got the name wrong?

The Gothamist article the following day states the horse was 37 years old…every other article says she was 20.

Why does it have to be nefarious simply because E.Forel wants you to believe its ?

By the way MHH the ASPCA confiscated her body for necrospy and no charges of neglect or abuse were filed so one has to believe nothing was found to indicate issues other then what was revealed that the mare coliced.

[IdahoRider]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7177328]
That’s what turned me off. I’m neither for or against. But the attitude and hostility are a total turnoff.[/QUOTE]
Yep. I am not on the fence about the issue. I support the continued use of carriage horses. Although my support doesn’t mean anything, since I don’t live there or vote there.

But it is difficult when the person/people who put a “face” to the industry can be so unpleasant.
Sheilah

[Bluey]

Originally Posted by LauraKY
That’s what turned me off. I’m neither for or against. But the attitude and hostility are a total turnoff.

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7177609]
Yep.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

As I said before, those that are against so much we do with horses, just because some animal rights extremist groups agendas push against that, those will be the ones found also here against this and that, here the NYC carriage horses, with one or another excuse, while they profess to be on the fence, which they clearly, obviously are not.:no:

I am not sure they are convincing anyone.

This situation with these carriage horses, if you don’t like the carriage horses, no one can say they are abused and need to go, as it is insisted by those against them, any more than my not liking gaited horses motoring around with their cut tails and to me absurd gaits and padded feet demands that I now call that be also banned, just because I don’t like it.

That just doesn’t make sense in a supposedly free world.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177605]
MHM I googled it just for the heck of it. The ONLY place I can find reference to Juliet wearing another horses halter was on Forel’s own page with a tiny news article. Which simply calls the horse Rusty it says nothing about a halter.

Every subsequent article discussing the incident identifies the horse as Juliet.

I’ve never known the media to jump the shark and publish something wrong in haste to get circulated.:lol:

Forel goes on to insinuate the driver offered up the wrong name. Yet the interview of the driver he clearly identifies the horse as Juliet. So why do we assume it was the driver who called her Rusty … perhaps it was another driver or bystander who got the name wrong?

The Gothamist article the following day states the horse was 37 years old…every other article says she was 20.

Why does it have to be nefarious simply because E.Forel wants you to believe its ?[/QUOTE]
Clearly you have demonstrated that there is confusion about this whole Juliet episode.
I think that asking M’Flynn or others who represent the Carriage drivers is not only the best way to get the info., but shows that those asking would believe whomever they are asking… since they’re asking.
Another reason that a flip, 'I’m not here to “make friends” and “influence people” - I’m here to tell the truth. I leave the pandering, schmoozing, faux diplomacy etc to the likes of Nislick and deBlasio et al.

If you don’t know the truth when you hear it, that’s your problem.’ response isn’t helpful, except to those who oppose the Carriages.

[MHM]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177605]
MHM I googled it just for the heck of it. The ONLY place I can find reference to Juliet wearing another horses halter was on Forel’s own page with a tiny news article.

Every subsequent article discussing the incident identifies the horse as Juliet.

I’ve never known the media to jump the shark and publish something wrong in haste to get circulated.

Forel goes on to insinuate the driver offered up the wrong name. Yet the interview of the driver he clearly identifies the horse as Juliet. So why do we assume it was the driver who called her Rusty … perhaps it was another driver or bystander who got the name wrong?[/QUOTE]

I’m not assuming anything. I’m simply asking a question (repeatedly) that seems like it should be easy to answer with a simple yes or no by someone who was directly involved with the horse.

It turns out that the death of the horse Jerry in Utah was, in fact, initially covered up, so that part of the statement was true, wasn’t it?

So is it true that Juliet was wearing another horse’s identification tags when she died?

How many times should a question need to be repeated to get a straight answer? Six? Eight? Ten?

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Paragon;7177562]
It’s really depressing that we’re nitpicking tone rather than discussing content. So I’ll try to bring up the issues again:

IF THIS BILL PASSES, an entire industry will be made illegal with absolutely no factual basis behind it.

IF THIS BILL PASSES, horses will be seized from their homes and put into unnamed “sanctuaries” - sanctuaries, it should be remembered, with such sterling ethics that they are apparently sitting on room for hundreds of horses while countless animals are starving, suffering, and dying every day in neglectful homes.

IF THIS BILL PASSES, horses who are accustomed to - and happy in - work will be put in places where it will be illegal for them to work again.

I don’t know about your horses, folks, but the jumpers I know would wear holes in the fence line if they were tossed out to live out their lives as pets. I can’t imagine these horses will fare much better.[/QUOTE]

Well, ‘work’ being narrowly defined as anything past eating and pooping, so even the leisurely hack around the pasture is ‘work’

However, this particular sh*tstorm is a spin-off of the legal manuvering on state level (yes, the bill to ban NYC city carriages are introduced at a state level! Does that make you all warm and fuzzy to know that in Albany people ‘care’ enough about your niche job to ban it? Which of course can then be applied to horses in Buffalo as well…)
But this has been reduced to the local level again, with the mayoral candidates prostituting themselves to the highest bidder, writing it on their flags to putting law abiding New Yorkers out of a job and robbing them of their livelihoods.
Legal means of making a living, mind you.

I am always amazed at the certain few on this forum who always get in a huff when not treated nicely. Not surprisingly usually the ones who are not nice to begin with.
This isn’t a popularity contest. It’s going down to the niddy gritty: being able to have horses and use them!
We are talking about a part of the industry that has to follow a rulebook thicker than what most here care to read for entertainment!
We are not talking about anything that could possibly be labeled as abuse (like spurs or whips) or that is so abusive that it makes normal people shudder (like soring).
This ‘you aren’t nice to me, so I let you fall and watch your demise’ is a really amazing concept. I suppose it is easy when you only play with your horses and would be financially better off if somebody put you on detox from your hobby by taking the horses away from you.
But this is a real problem. Of course, most of us won’t have the same problem.
most do not have barns worth more as a parking lot, or have enemies that can buy you out, lock stock and barrel, with petty cash!
But that dos not mean we are not all in danger of losing our way of life to the increasing number of cidiots out there.

At one point a horse person should just stand up and do what is best for all, even if they dislike some of the affected people.
Like defending the 1st Amendment: I might not like what you say, but I will defend your right to say it.

But in reality, the people who are put off by he strong verbage used sometimes in this context are just copping out, so they don’t have to face the music and have an excuse to sit on the porch and sip tea while the industry is being shelled and gutted.
Cary on. I am sure Breyer will still sell horses when even zoos don’t have them anymore!

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=MHM;7177628]
I’m not assuming anything. I’m simply asking a question (repeatedly) that seems like it should be easy to answer with a simple yes or no by someone who was directly involved with the horse.

It turns out that the death of the horse Jerry in Utah was, in fact, initially covered up, so that part of the statement was true, wasn’t it?[/QUOTE]

Yes and Eva stated as much in a response to you.

I still fail to see the connection between NYC’s carriage horses and a private company in Utah? His death was not covered up by anyone in NYC ? Eva even divulged that she called and spoke to the owner and chastised her for her illogical ruse.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7177639]
Yes and Eva stated as much in a response to you.

I still fail to see the connection between NYC’s carriage horses and a private company in Utah? His death was not covered up by anyone in NYC ? Eva even divulged that she called and spoke to the owner and chastised her for her illogical ruse.[/QUOTE]

Someone earlier suggested that while some use Rollkur, those on COTH don’'t malign all Dressage riders for the acts of those few Rollkur enthusiasts.
Though some Event horses die, those on COTH do not think that Eventing is an abusive endeavor on the whole.

People not on COTH, people who are not horseman, who do not know that one does not equal the whole, see a situation with a CARRIAGE HORSE in Utah and are not able to differentiate between that Carriage horse in Utah and Carriage horses in NYC. Generalizations and stereotypes are easier.
How often do you get asked by a non horse person ‘do you know so and so, they have horses!’

That is the connection- the support The NYC Carriage Horses need is from those who are WAY less aware that this event with those horses/those people over there is not related to these people/these horses over here. They will learn that the players in fact did lie about the horse in Utah… and lump all Carriage People together.
People tend to be lazy that way, about that which they know nothing and don’t care to learn about.

At least the COTH people care enough about learning to ask… or they did.

[Tha_Ridge]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7177609]
Yep. I am not on the fence about the issue. I support the continued use of carriage horses. Although my support doesn’t mean anything, since I don’t live there or vote there.

But it is difficult when the person/people who put a “face” to the industry can be so unpleasant.
Sheilah[/QUOTE]

Ding, ding, ding.

[AlterNetReality]

Wow. Talk about arguing over dinner being interrupted on the Titanic.

Carry on. Please. Really.

[TarheelJD]

These threads always seem to become about individual personalities, etc. Totally irrelevant.

For me, the issue is singular and simple. There are lying, crazy people trying to shut down a segment of the horse population (NYC carriage horses) based on blatent misrepresentations that the horses are abused. I have seen the NYC carraige horses and their facilities first hand - I know for a fact they are not abused in any way. As a horseperson, I feel I cannot sit by and do nothing while a group of horse owners is maligned and in danger of having their horses and livelihood taken away from them based on lies. That is all it comes down to for me.

And whether or not you think these radicals will ever try to shut down your horse disicpline, or you believe that if they do come after you, there is no way they would succeed in shutting you down, the other horse people who they are targetting deserve our support.

That being said - if I see unethical carriage operators, or carriage horses that are not treated properly, I would support shutting them down. Them personally, not an entire industry. The idiot in Utah who lied to the public about her horse dying should have her licensed yanked, IMO.

[JSwan]

Well said, TarheelJD

[MistyBlue]

How will they legally remove the horses from the owners? How is that remotely legally possible?
They’re using the erroneous claim of abuse for the reason for banning it, but unless they actually convict each owner of actual abuse and the court seizes the horses for that, the can’t take those horses. They can’t determine what will happen to those horses either…as in being sold or to whom, etc.
Are they lying (again) on their websites that all the horses will be going to their “ready and waiting” rescues and sanctuaries?
If this passes as written…we’re all screwed. Royally. And without lubrication. Not kidding.
It would be like saying, “Because so many show horses are drugged, ridden in temps over 90 degrees and not allowed to roam freely all the time showing will now be classified as abuse and made illegal. Anyone owning a show horse now has to relinquish ownership of their horses to rescues and sanctuaries.”

Who gives a crap if Eva is considered difficult or abrasive? As if Forel is a walking Care-Bear…There is questionable and stupid actions and owners in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of equine ownership.

So how does NYClass justify mounted police horses in the cities? Ridden in traffic, on roads, all day in all weather. Kept in stalls, no pasture. Working animals. And used for the specific purpose of crowd control and ridden On Purpose into volatile and violent situations and assaulted.

How does stuff like this happen? Dingbat horse women who don’t believe or are unable to grasp the concept of Setting Precedence. Or now want to make a point and win an argument because “that pro person is a big meany to me!”

Morons.

[Paragon]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;7177774]
How will they legally remove the horses from the owners? How is that remotely legally possible?[/QUOTE]

Forgive my rudimentary Schoolhouse Rock understanding of government, but it’s part of the bill. If the bill passes, it becomes law. No proof of abuse would be required.

I don’t know how well it would stand up in court, but I don’t exactly want to find out, either. We shouldn’t NEED to find out. It’s disgusting.

[MandyVA]

[QUOTE=MistyBlue;7177774]

If this passes as written…we’re all screwed. Royally. And without lubrication. Not kidding.
It would be like saying, “Because so many show horses are drugged, ridden in temps over 90 degrees and not allowed to roam freely all the time showing will now be classified as abuse and made illegal. Anyone owning a show horse now has to relinquish ownership of their horses to rescues and sanctuaries.”

Who gives a crap if Eva is considered difficult or abrasive? As if Forel is a walking Care-Bear…There is questionable and stupid actions and owners in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of equine ownership.

…

How does stuff like this happen? Dingbat horse women who don’t believe or are unable to grasp the concept of Setting Precedence. Or now want to make a point and win an argument because “that pro person is a big meany to me!”

Morons.[/QUOTE]

Precisely…and could everyone just stop responding to ANY posts that aren’t about this? The actual issue?

[JSwan]

MB - the thing is - it’s obviously a violation of due process. And yet; in order to stop their animals from being seized, all of these people are going to have to fight this out in Court. Who has that kind of money? Really. Think about it. We all say we’d fight tooth and nail for our horses, and I’m sure most COTH members would try.

Anyone who has had to retain counsel knows it can be very expensive - even for a relatively routine matter like uncontested custody or visitation.

Just think how much something like this would cost. A ban is not the issue. The issue is the forcible removal of these horses from their lawful owners. With no hearing. No redress at all. Someone is just going to drive up to their barns - with a police escort - and take their horses away. Forever. The owners cannot do one single thing. They cannot consult a lawyer, they have no rights, nothing.

People seem to believe that just because a legislature passes a law, that is somehow has passed constitutional muster. That’s not the case at all. There is no one standing over lobbyists and politicians and making checkmarks on the Constitution.

Legislatures are full of politicians. Politicians pass crappy laws all the time. Sometimes, those laws are challenged in the courts. But you must have a helluva lot of money. And a lot of time. Something none of those people have.

In the end; even though the law is clearly unconstitutional -(you cannot be deprived of property without due process) the victims lose anyway. Because they just don’t have the money to fight back. It’s really all about money. (in this case it’s the literal truth because this is a thinly veiled land grab by a developer)

[MandyVA]

[QUOTE=Paragon;7177787]
Forgive my rudimentary Schoolhouse Rock understanding of government, but it’s part of the bill. If the bill passes, it becomes law. No proof of abuse would be required.

I don’t know how well it would stand up in court, but I don’t exactly want to find out, either. We shouldn’t NEED to find out. It’s disgusting.[/QUOTE]

It’s not legal, it’s just what NOCLASS says to appease their supporters. Go over to their FB page Stopping NYC Horse Abuse, see the post that starts with Hey carriage drivers…they state it as fact that the horses will go to sanctuaries, when they won’t ever know or control where they go.

[MHM]

Isn’t the actual issue that the real estate in New York City is extremely valuable to a land developer? Isn’t that one of the basic arguments of the carriage drivers?

Until the horse property in the rest of the country becomes equally valuable, this issue seems unlikely to gain much traction elsewhere. If there is no financial incentive, who is going to spend the money to lobby the politicians?

[TarheelJD]

[QUOTE=MHM;7177812]
Isn’t the actual issue that the real estate in New York City is extremely valuable to a land developer? Isn’t that one of the basic arguments of the carriage drivers?

Until the horse property in the rest of the country becomes equally valuable, this issue seems unlikely to gain much traction elsewhere. If there is no financial incentive, who is going to spend the money to lobby the politicians?[/QUOTE]

The situiation in New York is indeed a perfect storm. There are 2 groups that are working towards the same goal (erradication of the horse drawn carriages in the city), albeit with different motives. The first group - the radical animal rights activists. The second group - the real estate developers. The first group doesn’t have the money to truly advance their agenda. The second group doesn’t have the “moral imperative” to outlaw the carriages solely for their own financial gain. But put those 2 groups together, and you have a credible threat.

Anyway, as I said before – whether or not you think these radicals will ever try to shut down your horse disicpline, or you believe that if they do come after you, there is no way they would succeed in shutting you down, the other horse people who they are targetting deserve our support.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=MHM;7177812]
Isn’t the actual issue that the real estate in New York City is extremely valuable to a land developer? Isn’t that one of the basic arguments of the carriage drivers?

Until the horse property in the rest of the country becomes equally valuable, this issue seems unlikely to gain much traction elsewhere. If there is no financial incentive, who is going to spend the money to lobby the politicians?[/QUOTE]

Are you not aware of the fight so many others that have and do anything with animals are in, being attacked from all sides, in person and in legislatures, by those animal rights extremist groups?

There are such fights in many other places, also in other cities by their carriage business.

While here we are talking about NYC, this is not the only place such battles are being fought by those with national and international non-profit animal rights extremist organizations, some of the most powerful non-profits in the world.

Traction you ask?
Do look around you with open eyes and you may be surprised what all has traction out there.:no: