ClipClopNYC '14 is officially on hold

[Amwrider]

[QUOTE=Lynnwood;7178775]
C&C You are far to intelligent and have shown to much compassion for horses in TRULY destitute situations to be letting Elizabeth Forel use you like she is.

Continuing to repeat things that are untrue will never make them fact in any circumstance.[/QUOTE]

Don’t lawyers call this “hearsay” and it is not admissible in court? CNC, are you a lawyer?

DEFINITION -Hearsay is information gathered by one person from another concerning some event, condition, or thing of which the first person had no direct experience. When submitted as evidence, such statements are called hearsay evidence. …

[Amwrider]

Come to think about it…if the new Mayor does try to eliminate the carriages and it goes to trial, I wouldn’t be surprised if the judge would throw the whole case out because of hearsay on the part of the RARAs. That is all they have to go on.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7178715]

How would anyone like to go work every day knowing someone will be yelling obscenities at them, harassing them, trying to run their clients off and baselessly demeaning them in the media?[/QUOTE]

First of all, for the life of me, I can’t understand why the carriage owners don’t video tape every interaction with the protesters and let the video speak for itself. I’m guessing that they could find volunteers to do ride alongs with a video camera among those horsemen/women who want to keep the carriages in NYC.

How would a lawyer, doctor, teacher, priest, factory worker keep going to work running a gauntlet of protesters all the hours they are at work and know that is going to be there for the rest of their working lives and demonized to the gullible public relentlessly?:eek:

I completely agree. This happens every day, all over the country, outside abortion clinics as well. They even protest outside the worker’s homes. It’s wrong. The police and the government should stop it. Just like we should stop Westboro Baptist in some way (although the bikers seem to be doing a pretty good job).

[MandyVA]

I took a nighttime ride around central park last month and paid with credit card, receipt was emailed to me. Of all the trifling nonsense to argue about…

[MandyVA]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7178295]
Y’know, this is something that as any kind of entity ONLY exists on the Internet, among the idle minds with underemployed keyboards who seek out made-up or out-of-context Mostly Nothing so they can kick up a Drama and pearl-clutch. All this does is elevate miniscule pixel-sized lunatics into the Big Thing they’d like to be; all for their personal gratification.

Try to put the operator of a legitimate business, the existence of which is centuries deep, OUT of business and it’s going to be LAWSUIT CITY. For the simple reason there is no basis to deny these people’s ability to make a lawful living. By the same token, there is ZERO basis to attach (seize) their lawful property, the horses, for a non-existent, undocumented, groundless “humane” problem that any possible expert who could be called to the witness stand, such as veterinarians, horse breeders, horse dealers, grooms etc. can prove satisfactorily does not exist.

This is nothing but “static,” unless YOU keep giving it life by kicking up the crap into a dust cloud over and OVER again in the name of “ZOMG, they’re coming for us” BS. Bottom line is this: If reasonable people (not lunatic radicals) don’t see much of a problem, no one’s going to take a case they can’t win. KEEP YOUR STANDARDS OF CARE AND USE HIGH and there will be no target in sight.

Stop doing these RARAS’ publicity work for them just because you love drama.[/QUOTE]

All the council has to do is put one finding in their bill that the purpose of the act is public safety and that is all the grounds they legally need. The seizure of the horses, whether it’s physical or constructive (rendering valuable propert to zero value without compensation) will be the grounds for a lawsuit. The only reason that unenforceable provision is in the bills is to appease RARAs who ask where will all the horses go.

Can we move on?

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=MandyVA;7179060]
I took a nighttime ride around central park last month and paid with credit card, receipt was emailed to me. Of all the trifling nonsense to argue about…[/QUOTE]

The same can be said for taxi drivers…cash or credit card. But why bother to continue to address it? You just lend credibility to the idea.

[MandyVA]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7179067]
The same can be said for taxi drivers…cash or credit card. But why bother to continue to address it? You just lend credibility to the idea.[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to brag.

[betonbill]

Personally, I think there’s a perfect story in the making, blue collar workers/blue collar horses being discriminated at and harassed by the white collar contingent.

There have actually been a lot of very good suggestions put forth on this thread, including trying to publicize this. Doesn’t have to be an expose, can merely be a “get to know” who these people/horses are. I would bet that a very small percentage of New Yorkers are the anti-carriage people; they are just more vocal.

I don’t believe the majority of people on this thread are anti-carriage. I think most of us want them to succeed, and nobody is trying to talk down to the carriage people.

I’ve said it before, but there are world class universities in NYC, and I’d bet that there are graduate students/professors who would be willing to pro bono some of the work or use the carriage trade as a PR project.

I sincerely hope that this works out well for the carriage drivers and their horses.

One more word: Lawyer up.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=MandyVA;7179075]
I just wanted to brag.[/QUOTE]

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=betonbill;7179091]
Personally, I think there’s a perfect story in the making, blue collar workers/blue collar horses being discriminated at and harassed by the white collar contingent.

There have actually been a lot of very good suggestions put forth on this thread, including trying to publicize this. Doesn’t have to be an expose, can merely be a “get to know” who these people/horses are. I would bet that a very small percentage of New Yorkers are the anti-carriage people; they are just more vocal.

I don’t believe the majority of people on this thread are anti-carriage. I think most of us want them to succeed, and nobody is trying to talk down to the carriage people.

I’ve said it before, but there are world class universities in NYC, and I’d bet that there are graduate students/professors who would be willing to pro bono some of the work or use the carriage trade as a PR project.

I sincerely hope that this works out well for the carriage drivers and their horses.

One more word: Lawyer up.[/QUOTE]

I tried offering the same advice last year. I ended up being attacked by Michaleenflynn because I also said that they needed to be very careful how they react to the protesters and online…that the nastiness was doing nothing to help their cause. That thread was what generated the nasty message from Miss Congeniality herself, E. Forel.

Michaleen made excuses for why that was impossible. So now I’m on the “against us” list. So be it, if that’s the way she wants it. I’m not willing to help anyone who seems committed to self destruction.

ETA: The whole, sad story of our falling out. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?358336-Heads-up-What-will-happen-to-the-NY-carriage-horses

And the Bayou Bengal/Michaleenflynn meltdown: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?360877-Looking-for-honest-opinions

[JGHIRETIRE]

OMG I can only imagine your frustration and the betrayal.

[QUOTE=michaleenflynn;7178360]
Thank you, Lady Eboshi.

I worked with Emily Hager, a top reporter for the NY Times for 8 months, ostensibly on an article that would be a bottom-up exposé , blowing the lid once and for all off the whole RARA/Nislick/Forel scam being perpetrated on both the carriage industry and the public at large.

The morning the article came out (she said it was against ethical concerns to let me see the final product before it was printed), we all woke up late, and I did not have time to turn on the computer before I rushed out the door to drive my daughter to school.

After dropping her off, I stopped at the first gas station and ran inside to buy the paper.

Minutes later, I stood next to the gas pump, crumpled NYT in hand, wailing, screaming, shouting, and crying into the phone, with Emily on the other end.

The article was on the FRONT PAGE, and it was a travesty. NOT an exposé on our enemies as promised, but rather the headline, accompanying photo, and entire text was skewed in the direction of “is this the end of the carriage industry”?

(Emily had used little to NONE of the mountain of evidence I gave her; the only new information she turned up was that the ASPCA had given NYCLASS $450,000 for their campaign against us rather than the $250,000 we knew about.)

Emily was obviously prepared for what she knew was coming from me - she was sheepish and apologetic and very quiet. Her proffered reason for the amazing turn of the article? “I got a new editor 3/4 of the way through, and this is the way he wanted to go.” Yes, you guessed it - the new editor had personal anti-carriage sentiments.

Eight months of my life I emailed, PMed, and spoke on the phone with this reporter almost daily; my industry believed me when I told them something great was coming out of all of this, because I believed Emily. In the end it was just about a big, fat zero. Maybe Emily Hager has Google Alerts for her own name, and will turn up here to confirm my story.[/QUOTE]

[Tha_Ridge]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7179096]
I tried offering the same advice last year. I ended up being attacked by Michaleenflynn because I also said that they needed to be very careful how they react to the protesters and online…that the nastiness was doing nothing to help their cause. That thread was what generated the nasty message from Miss Congeniality herself, E. Forel.

Michaleen made excuses for why that was impossible. So now I’m on the “against us” list. So be it, if that’s the way she wants it. I’m not willing to help anyone who seems committed to self destruction.[/QUOTE]

Right, I made a few suggestions on this thread for where I think time and resources could be better allocated (because as much as I love COTH, it is not the proper channel), and also explained why I voted the way I did, why I think normal people are “anti-carriage” (or at least think they are), but it seems like just ranting on COTH anytime something goes wrong and arguing with anyone who proposes a different call to action is the way the carriage folks want it. The nastiness from both sides is really deplorable, as is the unwillingness to answer questions.

I have a lot of connections in the city that could help—lawyers, journos, activists, you name it, but alas…

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=LauraKY;7179096]
I tried offering the same advice last year. I ended up being attacked by Michaleenflynn because I also said that they needed to be very careful how they react to the protesters and online…that the nastiness was doing nothing to help their cause. That thread was what generated the nasty message from Miss Congeniality herself, E. Forel.

Michaleen made excuses for why that was impossible. So now I’m on the “against us” list. So be it, if that’s the way she wants it. I’m not willing to help anyone who seems committed to self destruction.

ETA: The whole, sad story of our falling out. http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?358336-Heads-up-What-will-happen-to-the-NY-carriage-horses[/QUOTE]

There is advice and there is passive-aggressive piling it on while insisting it is only giving advice.:no:

We should edit ourselves so the differences there are clear, something too many don’t do enough of.:rolleyes:

[Coanteen]

[QUOTE=Tha Ridge;7179110]
(because as much as I love COTH, it is not the proper channel), [/QUOTE]

I just don’t see how COTH support helps, apart from a place to vent and get emotional support. Practically, it doesn’t do anything. Even if every single COTHer was a “pro” (and I don’t see why categorizing posters into pro and anti is even helpful in this setting, eh), it still wouldn’t change things on the ground.

Fundamentally, the politicians will follow money and votes - they’d go against money if the majority of the electorate was against it, but in this case it isn’t. Most voters in NY probably don’t give a hoot either way, and those that do are non-horsepeople convinced to the no-carriages side by the slick PR campaign.

At this point I’d be gathering support and funds for a legal challenge. It’s clear that the carriage side can’t match the funds or the PR campaign of the anti side, but in court PR won’t matter.

[Tha_Ridge]

Agreed 100 percent, Coanteen.

[Alagirl]

The usual suspects are talking like the carriage drivers have been twiddling their thumbs in the last, oh, 20-30 years… :lol:

Publicising…hmm, I thought when you talked to journalists to get them to write and article for the news paper (the biggest, most important one in the country no less) that is trying to get it public…writing letters to the editor and asking like minded friends to do so…

Organizing Clip Clop, along with an Open Barn event…surely not…yep, public.

lawyer up?
Oh goodness. I am sure they can offer this fella a nice ‘office space’ on the top floor of one of the barns, probably bigger than any downtown cubicle…but you can’t just hire anybody who will work for free in the hope the high prized suits the antis will bring to the table just miraculously roll over!

But seriously: The handful who keep harping on Eva’s forum manner are usually the ones most brash when it suits their needs. Not to mention they are more on the side of the activists vs the horse owner.
For now they come across as the person on the pier, holding on to the life preserver because they don’t like the way the drowning person was requesting their assistance…so in essence, the self congratulatory ‘I told them so’ is a bid smug and also rather counter-productive.
Well, at least for those of us who actually WANT to have horses in our lives…

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;7179155]
The usual suspects are talking like the carriage drivers have been twiddling their thumbs in the last, oh, 20-30 years… :lol:

Publicising…hmm, I thought when you talked to journalists to get them to write and article for the news paper (the biggest, most important one in the country no less) that is trying to get it public…writing letters to the editor and asking like minded friends to do so…

Organizing Clip Clop, along with an Open Barn event…surely not…yep, public.

lawyer up?
Oh goodness. I am sure they can offer this fella a nice ‘office space’ on the top floor of one of the barns, probably bigger than any downtown cubicle…but you can’t just hire anybody who will work for free in the hope the high prized suits the antis will bring to the table just miraculously roll over!

But seriously: The handful who keep harping on Eva’s forum manner are usually the ones most brash when it suits their needs. Not to mention they are more on the side of the activists vs the horse owner.
For now they come across as the person on the pier, holding on to the life preserver because they don’t like the way the drowning person was requesting their assistance…so in essence, the self congratulatory ‘I told them so’ is a bid smug and also rather counter-productive.
Well, at least for those of us who actually WANT to have horses in our lives…[/QUOTE]

But it’s not working.

And for those of us who are “brash”, we’re not the public face of an industry under attack. This forum is PUBLIC. In other words, her opposition can see it.

See…just more excuses. How many people are willing to continue to throw a life preserver to someone who spits on you as soon as you get close because they don’t like the color/style of the life preserver?

[michaleenflynn]

[QUOTE=Tha Ridge;7179110]

I have a lot of connections in the city that could help—lawyers, journos, activists, you name it, but alas…[/QUOTE]

You have never offered those resources to me.

The last I heard from you was when you generously offered to host an out-of-town ClipClopper in your apartment sometime before March, 2012. That was the only time you had any interaction with any if us in the business to my knowledge, and you did not attend either the 2012 or 2013 ClipClop.

Also have not seen you on any carriage thread here on COTH, or on either of our FB pages since.

[Paragon]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;7179155]
The usual suspects are talking like the carriage drivers have been twiddling their thumbs in the last, oh, 20-30 years… :lol:[/QUOTE]

Or that people who post on these forums are doing literally nothing else productive.

I’ve made a number of posts on this thread in the past two days. I’ve also been attending full-time classes, working part-time, looking after my family, and managed to squeeze in time for both homework and a nap. The time investment that goes into posting here, folks, ain’t much.

So that particular value judgment really doesn’t have a place in the conversation, apart from idle speculation without any credible support.

[michaleenflynn]

[QUOTE=Coanteen;7179133]
I just don’t see how COTH support helps, apart from a place to vent and get emotional support. Practically, it doesn’t do anything. [/QUOTE]

You’ll just have to trust me on this, as I said before on this thread. COTH members have been and continue to be a huge help to us, in very real and practical ways. There is much going on behind the scenes that I cannot post about here, as we know the opponents to our industry read this forum.

Very soon, though, we will be asking for a specific type of help from other COTH members, hope you will consider the request when we make it.