CO-ownership......?s

[spook1]

Hi All,
Another question for Dog peeps. Tell me about Co-ownwership. This seems to be a big thing for breeders. I have talked (emailed) a couple breeders trying to get a perspective on the breeds. And I have not asked any this question. I have never co-owned anything and it seems like it could be a civil mess if something goes amiss. and due to my occupation always look for that potenical…(:eek:…lol)

So in co-ownership how are the dissisions made? Such as vet bills,what shows, who shows, if bred how are litters/stud fees split? What if one party wants to spay/neuter?

Thanks again

[riff]

I co-own a German Shepherd with her breeder. In my case, all the details were discussed ahead of time. She makes certain decisions and I make others. And I keep her informed about the dog. Just make sure all your questions are answered before you step in. In writing is best. And you are right, it is very common for show dogs to have several owners listed.

[MsM]

IME, it is common for one owner to make the decisions and the others buy in as more or less silent partners. Some do that to have their name on a successful show dog they couldnt afford to own and campaign by themselves. For others, the breeding rights are important. Most have a contract with a pretty detailed list of rights and responsibilities of co-owners.

[Kryswyn]

Co-owning benefits the breeder and can allow them to get dogs on the circuit and shown w/o having to pay show expenses and also allows them to contol the bitches breeding and get free stud services for other bitches they own and co-own. By requiring both names on certain forms the breeder can prevent the person who actually keeps the dog from breeding it indiscriminately (in theory). Some people who have deep pockets and a love for a particular breed often buy into a dog that is specialling because they like to hear their name announced and want bragging rights. Bill Cosby was a famous co-owner of wire fox terriers that were bred by a woman who was a long time friend (I don’t think he did it for bragging rights, he just wanted to help his friend). I don’t know if any of those wires ever went to live with him when they retired but many retired show dogs end up with one of the co-owners who didn’t show them.

It all depends on the contract that’s written up.

Co-owning is about the only way to get a top breeder to sell you a puppy (and not necessarily a ‘pick’ puppy either) because they can ensure that the pup will not be exploited. If you have no interest in breeding or showing, be sure to mention that you’d like a puppy with limited registration (no puppies will be allowed to be registered from this dog). However, breeders of dogs that are now desirable for being 1/2 of a ‘designer’ dog may go even further and demand spaying or neutering before the pup is released to the new owner.

The downside of co-owning, or ‘breeder’s terms’ can make you responsible for supplying the breeder with free puppies all at YOUR expense. You pay a slightly discounted price for the puppy but the breeder tells you WHEN you will breed your bitch (they’re usually bitches BTW), WHO you’ll breed her to (and all the expenses ie stud fee, vet tests, transport are yours) and then the specified number of puppies are the breeder’s. If your contract is so written, you might get to do all of this TWICE.

Bottom line: be sure you know EXACTLY what is expected of you, get it in writing, and be very sure you want a puppy on these terms.

[Casey09]

I agree . . . co-ownership can be the only way to get a good show prospect. Ask to see the contract in advance and make sure that you can live with the requirements.
I co-own 1 dog with the breeder, but it never became an issue because when she matured, an issue cropped up that would have prevented participation in conformation showing. Frankly, at this point, I’ve lost interest in showing conformation - I’ve realized that I’d rather do other stuff with my dogs. A lot of the co-ownership contracts that I’ve seen require you to turn the dog over to a handler in certain circumstances. That doesn’t excite me too much, but many are okay with that.
About 10 yrs ago, a lot of breeders were requiring pediatric spay and neuter. Some of the new research on early spay and neuter has changed a lot of that, at least in my experience. A lot of breeders are now encouraging people to wait until the dogs are older to get them altered (although obviously not to breed them).

[Marshfield]

As others have said, co-owning is very common if you’re looking to get a show quality dog. My foundation corgi is co-owned. I think under our contract I’m responsible for all routine expenses. We split costs for any breeding equally. Same thing for any proceeds. And for those who may be gasping in horror–the only reason there are any proceeds to split is that as a veterinarian my expenses are greatly reduced. A friend was doing his test films for PennHip certification, so her hip films were at no cost. Her surgical insemination was a no-cost benefit of my job, etc.

The big thing I’d suggest for somebody looking to get into this is to have a plan for what happens if the dog doesn’t pass the basic health screening. And also be sure you’re okay with putting your beloved bitch through a pregnancy if you’re co-owning a bitch.

[Bicoastal]

I co-own: get it all down in the contract

What’s in the Top 5 Rules of COTH: Get it in writing.

There are far more experienced posters who have already given great advice as far as what specifically to write down.

Are you looking to bring up a puppy to show in breed? Performance sports? Pet?

My teeny bit of experience: I co-own a finished dog. Our arrangement came about because the breeder did not have the age range I wanted, but had a slightly older dog she thought would fit the bill but she uses in her breeding program. Since I only live 1hr away, co-ownership meant I could take have this dog for OB, agility, and everyday pet while she can pick him up to breed. I am responsible for all care/vet expenses/competition fees per our contract. Breeder is responsible for all mating expenses.

I love a dog with letters at both ends of the name

[Mara]

Echo the “be sure you know what you’re getting into”. Many years ago when I was working at a vet’s office, we had a client who got a Giant Schnauzer puppy, with the breeder retaining ownership rights. The pup was slated for a show career and, while he lived with our client, there was a contract that micromanaged everything about him. For example, he was supposed to go to the groomers’ X number of times per month to be clipped/have his coat hand-stripped, a list of “approved” trainers, etc. I think the only reason the client ended up in this situation was because she was so determined to have a Giant, and well-bred healthy ones are not exactly available on every street corner.

The poor woman had really underestimated what she was getting into, though all the training was turning him into a super family pet. Initially she thought the showing part would be “fun”, but had no clue as to the amount of work and money involved. Boy, was she relieved when the puppy had one testicle that absolutely would not drop. Dog got neutered and the breeder signed over full ownership.

[spook1]

Hi All,
Thank you for the great replies! My goal is showing with some fun stuff as agility and of course a pet. I am really not interested in the breeding but if I was successful with the dog and wanted to continue I would consider maybe breeding once but only if successful in the primary goals.

It doesn’t seem like it a very good deal for the purchaser. :no:
I kinda wanted a female cause I hate all the marking males do but honestly having to have litters cause someone wants me to doesn’t appeal to me. So it seems like a male would be a better choice.

Thank you for the great advice to really look at the contracts. And I will certainly make a point to .:winkgrin:
The dog world is a lot different then the horse world!:lol:

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=spook1;5739865]
Hi All,
Thank you for the great replies! My goal is showing with some fun stuff as agility and of course a pet. I am really not interested in the breeding but if I was successful with the dog and wanted to continue I would consider maybe breeding once but only if successful in the primary goals.

It doesn’t seem like it a very good deal for the purchaser. :no:
I kinda wanted a female cause I hate all the marking males do but honestly having to have litters cause someone wants me to doesn’t appeal to me. So it seems like a male would be a better choice.

Thank you for the great advice to really look at the contracts. And I will certainly make a point to .:winkgrin:
The dog world is a lot different then the horse world!:lol:[/QUOTE]

One problem with show dogs is that you don’t alter them.
Some times, for a pet dog, you really want them neutered/spayed.

I agree, co-ownership mostly benefits the breeder, that now has more dogs to pick from, while the co-owners help carry the costs.

What is also not realized by those that co-own a pet that is a show dog is the time their dog will be on the road with a handler, being shown, when you really want that dog with you, in your house.
That happens also if you own the dog and decide to show it and put it with a handler, but if you are homesick for your dog, you can get it back if you don’t have a contract to keeps showing it.

[Big_Grey_hunter]

[QUOTE=spook1;5739865]
Hi All,
Thank you for the great replies! My goal is showing with some fun stuff as agility and of course a pet. I am really not interested in the breeding but if I was successful with the dog and wanted to continue I would consider maybe breeding once but only if successful in the primary goals.

It doesn’t seem like it a very good deal for the purchaser. :no:
I kinda wanted a female cause I hate all the marking males do but honestly having to have litters cause someone wants me to doesn’t appeal to me. So it seems like a male would be a better choice.

Thank you for the great advice to really look at the contracts. And I will certainly make a point to .:winkgrin:
The dog world is a lot different then the horse world!:lol:[/QUOTE]

The purchaser gets to own a fantastically bred dog that in other circumstances they wouldn’t have a chance in hell of getting. They get the advice and training of someone who has dedicated their lives to that particular breed.

It sounds to me co-ownership may not be what you want. If you just want a pet and to play around with agility, a ‘pet quality’ dog from a breeder, one who has some minor flaw keeping it from showing, would serve your purposes just fine.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Big_Grey_hunter;5739910]
The purchaser gets to own a fantastically bred dog that in other circumstances they wouldn’t have a chance in hell of getting. They get the advice and training of someone who has dedicated their lives to that particular breed.

It sounds to me co-ownership may not be what you want. If you just want a pet and to play around with agility, a ‘pet quality’ dog from a breeder, one who has some minor flaw keeping it from showing, would serve your purposes just fine.[/QUOTE]

Then, that only applies to the conformation part of the dog world, which is but a small part.

Many looking for a dog for performance can use most puppies in a litter, doesn’t matter if an ear is not quite formed according to the breed standard, if the color is off, or like my dog, a bit too small for conformation.

Other than conformation and breeding, if you are not into either, you don’t need that kind of dog.

If you are into conformation and breeding, then yes, having a mentor and/or co-owning is part of that world, how beginners in it get their start at times with a better dog than they would be able to buy.

[threedogpack]

it is not completely accurate to say you cannot get a nicely bred dog w/o co-ownership. I’ve done it 2 times and both times the breeders did not include a clause that required spay/neuter or limited registration.

first dog: bred by an AKC judge, who gave me full registration. I told him I would not be doing a championship but I did want to get at least a CD on her. He was fine with that. She became my heart dog and finished her CD in 4 attempts. She also went back to him to be bred.

second dog: I told that breeder I would not do a co-ownership or limited reg. either. We talked back and forth for some time and she finally decided to trust me. That dog stayed intact through her 2 year old year, at which point I decided to spay her, again after consultation with the breeder.

the next puppy will come from a woman that owns the stud dog to my youngest dog. She also sells puppies w/o limited registration. She has multiple Ch. dogs as well.

I will not buy from a breeder who insists on limited registration or co-ownership. I understand why they do it, but once they sell me a dog, they need to trust that I’m not going to breed haphazardly and I will take care of the dog. If it was important to me to get a championship on a dog, I’d send that dog back to them for the showing or to a handler recommended by them. That said, I .would. sign a contract when purchasing if the contract did not have things in it that limited my ability to do or not do what I wanted with the dog. For example, if the breeder wanted me to keep the dog intact for 3 years, but not get or breed the dog, in order to re-evaluate for possible kennel stock, I’d do that.

zips up flamesuit

[Big_Grey_hunter]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5739934]
Then, that only applies to the conformation part of the dog world, which is but a small part.

Many looking for a dog for performance can use most puppies in a litter, doesn’t matter if an ear is not quite formed according to the breed standard, if the color is off, or like my dog, a bit too small for conformation.

Other than conformation and breeding, if you are not into either, you don’t need that kind of dog.

If you are into conformation and breeding, then yes, having a mentor and/or co-owning is part of that world, how beginners in it get their start at times with a better dog than they would be able to buy.[/QUOTE]

I agree, that’s why I mentioned a ‘pet quality’ dog is probably what she’s looking for. You still get a well bred dog and a knowledgeable breeder, but you can’t show in conformation or breed the dog.

[spook1]

Hi Bluey
I would want to do the handling and grooming cause thats the fun! lol This is my replacement for horses since its kinda looks like my horse days are coming to a end:(

Ugh there is so much to learn not only about the breed I choose but the owner/breeder relationship. That was something I didn’t think about til recently. Clearly I need to.:lol: I have been focusing on the breed and the leaning about shows.

I luv this forum!! There is such wealth of knowledge on here
Thank you

[spook1]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5739942]
it is not completely accurate to say you cannot get a nicely bred dog w/o co-ownership. I’ve done it 2 times and both times the breeders did not include a clause that required spay/neuter or limited registration.

first dog: bred by an AKC judge, who gave me full registration. I told him I would not be doing a championship but I did want to get at least a CD on her. He was fine with that. She became my heart dog and finished her CD in 4 attempts. She also went back to him to be bred.

second dog: I told that breeder I would not do a co-ownership or limited reg. either. We talked back and forth for some time and she finally decided to trust me. That dog stayed intact through her 2 year old year, at which point I decided to spay her, again after consultation with the breeder.

the next puppy will come from a woman that owns the stud dog to my youngest dog. She also sells puppies w/o limited registration. She has multiple Ch. dogs as well.

I will not buy from a breeder who insists on limited registration or co-ownership. I understand why they do it, but once they sell me a dog, they need to trust that I’m not going to breed haphazardly and I will take care of the dog. If it was important to me to get a championship on a dog, I’d send that dog back to them for the showing or to a handler recommended by them. That said, I .would. sign a contract when purchasing if the contract did not have things in it that limited my ability to do or not do what I wanted with the dog. For example, if the breeder wanted me to keep the dog intact for 3 years, but not get or breed the dog, in order to re-evaluate for possible kennel stock, I’d do that.

zips up flamesuit[/QUOTE]

THIS…is what I am thinking

[Houndhill]

I own, show (conformation and have shown obedience), judge, and very occasionally breed. I have co-owned all the puppies I have sold. I ask only to be consulted if they are bred, and of course my signature would be required if they were bred. One reason I have required this (in addition to maintaining some control over breeding) is that, in the event of the death of the owner, it would apparently easier for me to get the dog back, although of course that is also in the contract.

I have also purchased a number of dogs on a co-ownership basis, and have taken some and given some as stud puppies (ie when other breeders have used my stud dogs or I have used theirs) and have always co-owned those puppies with the breeders.

Another reason we co-own is so that if that puppy were bred, if she is a bitch, and I got a puppy, I could then show that puppy in the Bred By Exhibitor Class at dog shows.

I’ve been doing this for forty years, and so far, it has worked out very well. I am fortunate in having dealt with great people, we all have the dogs’ best interests at heart, and everyone seems to feel the co ownership arrangement can benefit everyone.

In some breeds, it is very much what responsible breeders do. I can’t see how it is disadvantageous to the new owner, if it is done right. The new owners become part of “The Family”!

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;5740073]
I can’t see how it is disadvantageous to the new owner, if it is done right. The new owners become part of “The Family”![/QUOTE]

wellllll, co-owning a dog is probably similar to lending a good friend money or a vehicle. If you have a difference of opinion on how/what to do with the dog, it can get ugly.

YMMV, but I will not co-own a dog.

[Kryswyn]

[QUOTE=spook1;5739865]
Hi All,
Thank you for the great replies! My goal is showing with some fun stuff as agility and of course a pet. I am really not interested in the breeding but if I was successful with the dog and wanted to continue I would consider maybe breeding once but only if successful in the primary goals.

It doesn’t seem like it a very good deal for the purchaser. :no:
I kinda wanted a female cause I hate all the marking males do but honestly having to have litters cause someone wants me to doesn’t appeal to me. So it seems like a male would be a better choice.

Thank you for the great advice to really look at the contracts. And I will certainly make a point to .:winkgrin:
The dog world is a lot different then the horse world!:lol:[/QUOTE]

Of course, if you neuter before 6 months you don’t have to worry about marking. I kept my last male pup intact until just past his first birthday. Which was about a month after he began FINALLY lifting his leg (I think he was totally cowed by my alpha male). For about 30 days after neutering he would mark in the yard. Then as the testosterone dropped he went back to squatting on the lawn for the most part, rarely does he mark a tree or bush. Heck, after he’s competed he LIES DOWN to pee!

Did you say what breed you wanted? I forget. But if you’re really interested in Agility you can probably get a performance quality pup with a spay/neuter contract from a good (if not top conformation) breeder. I wouldn’t get involved with breeding. No offense, but you don’t have the knowledge to be breeding to better the breed. Even if your dog becomes a great Agility champion, he doesn’t need to procreate because while agility talent can be inherited, it has way more to do with training.

As a breeder I can say and frequently do say, “Breeding. Not for the faint of heart.” Just get your dog and enjoy it.

[threedogpack]

marking is not always due to hormones and an intact dog does not have to mark. Sometimes it’s due to anxiety or rank order.

My male dogs will mark if allowed, but never in the house. If I did not want them to mark, I’d teach them appropriate times to urinate vs times when they are permitted to mark.