CO-ownership......?s

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5739903]
What is also not realized by those that co-own a pet that is a show dog is the time their dog will be on the road with a handler, being shown, when you really want that dog with you, in your house.
That happens also if you own the dog and decide to show it and put it with a handler, but if you are homesick for your dog, you can get it back if you don’t have a contract to keeps showing it.:)[/QUOTE]

This is really not true – it absolutely depends on WHY the breeder wants to co-own the dog. Some breeders may want to show YOUR dog, but that’s only one reason they may want to co-own it. And certainly, if you’re not already involved heavily into dog showing, you would never buy a co-owned dog that the breeder wanted to campaign as a special at some point in the future. This is the sort of arrangement that is often made by people that are already very involved in the breed.

Many breeders will sell puppies on a limited registration if they are not “show quality” rather than co-owning them. There are many ways around being sure you don’t “exploit” a dog they bred without them having to co-own every single puppy. For a top breeder, that would be ridiculous!

Many breeders want to co-own because it will change what classes the dogs can be shown in. My show dog is not co-owned, but I have talked to his breeder about putting her on as a co-owner so that she could show him in a “Bred By Exhibitor” class at the National Specialty Show. For her, a win out of that class at that show would be a lifetime achievement…but she has zero interest in anything other than that. Another of his littermates is likely to have the breeder show him, and by being a co-owner the breeder can show him out of the Bred By class and not have to enter the more competitive Open Dog classes which may be tougher for him to be seen.

Co-owning also impacts the breeding of a dog. I think (but maybe I’m backwards on this) that the AKC requires all owners of co-owned bitches to sign off on the registration of a litter, while co-owned dogs require only one owner? Or maybe they both require all signatures – essentially making it impossible for the owners to breed the dog without the consent of all the owners…which is important – sometimes a dog is the product of two good breeders and both want to ensure the use of that DNA in future breedings.

I think your chances of finding a well-bred dog that is not co-owned is pretty good, unless you are looking at a specific breeder who is already known for wanting to co-own. And perhaps it is breed specific, so definitely do your research.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=S1969;5740619]
This is really not true – it absolutely depends on WHY the breeder wants to co-own the dog. Some breeders may want to show YOUR dog, but that’s only one reason they may want to co-own it. And certainly, if you’re not already involved heavily into dog showing, you would never buy a co-owned dog that the breeder wanted to campaign as a special at some point in the future. This is the sort of arrangement that is often made by people that are already very involved in the breed.

Many breeders will sell puppies on a limited registration if they are not “show quality” rather than co-owning them. There are many ways around being sure you don’t “exploit” a dog they bred without them having to co-own every single puppy. For a top breeder, that would be ridiculous!

Many breeders want to co-own because it will change what classes the dogs can be shown in. My show dog is not co-owned, but I have talked to his breeder about putting her on as a co-owner so that she could show him in a “Bred By Exhibitor” class at the National Specialty Show. For her, a win out of that class at that show would be a lifetime achievement…but she has zero interest in anything other than that. Another of his littermates is likely to have the breeder show him, and by being a co-owner the breeder can show him out of the Bred By class and not have to enter the more competitive Open Dog classes which may be tougher for him to be seen.

Co-owning also impacts the breeding of a dog. I think (but maybe I’m backwards on this) that the AKC requires all owners of co-owned bitches to sign off on the registration of a litter, while co-owned dogs require only one owner? Or maybe they both require all signatures – essentially making it impossible for the owners to breed the dog without the consent of all the owners…which is important – sometimes a dog is the product of two good breeders and both want to ensure the use of that DNA in future breedings.

I think your chances of finding a well-bred dog that is not co-owned is pretty good, unless you are looking at a specific breeder who is already known for wanting to co-own. And perhaps it is breed specific, so definitely do your research.[/QUOTE]

Well, it is really true, sorry to say.
We give classes to the public in obedience, household manners, agility, etc. and you can’t believe how many clueless dog owners come to classes with a dog they can’t handle, generally a big male unneutered dog, that they have not known how to raise and handle and is now ruling the household.
When we ask about neutering as a first step to help in that situation, not that unneutered young untrained males are like that because they are not neutered, but it does help the situation very much to neuter, they tell us they can’t because they have a co-own contract with the breeder and the dog is so good the breeder wants to use as a stud dog.:rolleyes:

Or they won’t spay because the breeder co-owns the dog and wants puppies as per contract.

Sure, those are not that good breeders, practically only one rung above puppy mills, but yes, it is a problem with many owners wanting a pet dog to enjoy to now have to abide by breeding contracts by a co-owned dog.

Not only that, at the time of the sale, the puppy was made to seem such a great dog just because the breeder wanted to co-own it and outrageous prices were asked for the puppy under that pretense.

There are the few really good breeders, then there are the rest.

I will insist, unless you are in dogs and part of what that world involves, as someone as this OP, wanting just a pet, I would NOT co-own a dog and be obligated to some I don’t understand what it really involves.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5740651]
Well, it is really true, sorry to say.
We give classes to the public in obedience, household manners, agility, etc. and you can’t believe how many clueless dog owners come to classes with a dog they can’t handle, generally a big male unneutered dog, that they have not known how to raise and handle and is now ruling the household.
When we ask about neutering as a first step to help in that situation, not that unneutered young untrained males are like that because they are not neutered, but it does help the situation very much to neuter, they tell us they can’t because they have a co-own contract with the breeder and the dog is so good the breeder wants to use as a stud dog.:rolleyes:

Or they won’t spay because the breeder co-owns the dog and wants puppies as per contract.

Sure, those are not that good breeders, practically only one rung above puppy mills, but yes, it is a problem with many owners wanting a pet dog to enjoy to now have to abide by breeding contracts by a co-owned dog.

Not only that, at the time of the sale, the puppy was made to seem such a great dog just because the breeder wanted to co-own it and outrageous prices were asked for the puppy under that pretense.

There are the few really good breeders, then there are the rest.

I will insist, unless you are in dogs and part of what that world involves, as someone as this OP, wanting just a pet, I would NOT co-own a dog and be obligated to some I don’t understand what it really involves.[/QUOTE]

OK, well, I guess I was making the assumption we were talking about GOOD breeders. Obviously a “breeder” who sells a dog with a breeding contract to a home that doesn’t intend to show it…they are not a GOOD breeder.

Not sure what made the puppy “so good” as to demand a high price…and that’s another red flag…“show quality good?” Then it should be in a show home.

Anyway, I agree with you that the OP probably does not need to buy a “co-owned” dog…depending on the breed he/she may be able to find exactly what he/she is looking for without co-ownership. However, I wouldn’t necessarily assume that all co-ownerships are bad situations - they just need to be spelled out clearly.

I am really only familiar with one breed; I know in my breed you can easily find a very well-bred show quality puppy that you could buy without co-ownership. If you were so inclined, you could find a breeder who would help you show it in conformation. But if you were not, your outright ownership would allow you to spay/neuter as you choose.

If you are searching for a top-quality show prospect, you may not be able to find one without co-ownership.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=S1969;5740674]
OK, well, I guess I was making the assumption we were talking about GOOD breeders. Obviously a “breeder” who sells a dog with a breeding contract to a home that doesn’t intend to show it…they are not a GOOD breeder.

Not sure what made the puppy “so good” as to demand a high price…and that’s another red flag…“show quality good?” Then it should be in a show home.

Anyway, I agree with you that the OP probably does not need to buy a “co-owned” dog…depending on the breed he/she may be able to find exactly what he/she is looking for without co-ownership. However, I wouldn’t necessarily assume that all co-ownerships are bad situations - they just need to be spelled out clearly.

I am really only familiar with one breed; I know in my breed you can easily find a very well-bred show quality puppy that you could buy without co-ownership. If you were so inclined, you could find a breeder who would help you show it in conformation. But if you were not, your outright ownership would allow you to spay/neuter as you choose.

If you are searching for a top-quality show prospect, you may not be able to find one without co-ownership.[/QUOTE]

That is what I had already stated, co-ownership has a narrow value to both, breeder/seller and buyer/owner.

For some already in the dog world, for someone getting serious about becoming a breeder/handler, to co-own a flier show dog, let the breeder and handlers win big and manage the dog, is not your pet raised by you in your house, maybe some co-ownership situations make sense.

For the rest of the dog buying and owning public, co-ownership restrains doesn’t make sense.

That is my answer to the question of co-ownership of dogs.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Bluey;5740699]
For some already in the dog world, for someone getting serious about becoming a breeder/handler, to co-own a flier show dog, let the breeder and handlers win big and manage the dog, is not your pet raised by you in your house, maybe some co-ownership situations make sense.[/QUOTE]

But that’s not an accurate description of SO MANY co-ownerships.

A co-ownership could be great for someone who is interested in a specific breed, doing agility, having a pet, and possibly showing in conformation. But it would depend on the agreement.

If I let my dog’s breeder co-own my dog, the only thing that would be different would be that she could show the dog in Bred-By Exhibitor classes if I let her. Otherwise, I show him, he sleeps in my bed every night, and if I choose to breed him, it’s my decision.

I don’t think that specific example is unusual. If a breeder INSISTS on co-ownership, then it might not be right for a first time owner. But then again, it would depend on the agreement – if the only reason the breeder does that is so you have to get his/her signature before breeding, that isn’t a problem for most people. I think many breeders would prefer you spay/neuter than breed. If the puppy is SO good that they know they want to breed it when it’s 8 weeks old, it usually doesn’t end up with a stranger to the breed.

[Houndhill]

Whoa, Bluey, I agree that it is certainly unethical to pressure anyone, especially an inexperienced owner who does not have an existing breeding program, to breed their dog! I think we are talking apples and oranges here…with a couple of exceptions, most of my puppies have gone to other established breeders and or/experienced homes to people I have known for some time. Those who have gone to primarily companion or performance homes, I would not have a problem with neutering. If it were a truly exceptional male, I might ask them if I could look at him before they neutered him. Then, if I thought I might really want to use him someday in my breeding program, (probably I would have kept a sibling or and/or another breeder would have one so it would seem unusual), I would feel I had to pay for all the pre-breeding health tests (OFA hips and elbows, CERF, echocardiogram for my breed), then pay to have him collected and pay for the storage of the semen before he was neutered. If the owner wanted to spay a companion bitch, I would probably be pleased, one less thing to worry about. But I wouldn’t have let her go if I did not trust the new owners to make good decisions for her. I still would want my name on her, and so far no one has seemed reluctant (even a couple of attorneys as I think about it!) as it is
customary in my breed. You just never know what will happen, divorce,
death, illness etc., and I prefer to have that little bit of assurance that I could
get a hound back quickly if the situation arose, even though there is a contract
to that effect.

That is different than co-owning a bitch puppy that goes to another breeder, with the understanding that if she is someday bred, I might like a puppy. Or is a male, that I might like to use him.

But, certainly the co-ownership should never be used to encourage or pressure people who do not have any business breeding dogs to do so. I am afraid you are right, though, I have also heard of cases where it is, rarely in my breed though, thank goodness! It does happen, no question.

If I were looking for a companion or performance dog, with no intention of breeding, I would probably prefer not to have a co-ownership, and probably would try to work something out with the breeder who usually had that arrangement. But I would try to keep an open mind, and address any concerns both parties might have, and not rule it out. Hopefully you both just want what is in the best long term interests of the puppy.

[spook1]

Hi All
A quick note (at work lol) I’ll say it again I luv this forum ! I have not read all the posts since last night. But someone asked about what breed I was interested in and it will be a setter. I understand that I will have to keep the dog/bitch unaltered because I Do want to show in confirmation and I was the joys and the pain of handling myself and of course I want to work with someone who can guide me in the right way. What I worry about it being forced to breed if I don’t want to or they decide they want the dog back or something else go arye.
Thank you for all the replies I learning a ton!!

[S1969]

[QUOTE=spook1;5740930]
Hi All
A quick note (at work lol) I’ll say it again I luv this forum ! I have not read all the posts since last night. But someone asked about what breed I was interested in and it will be a setter. I understand that I will have to keep the dog/bitch unaltered because I Do want to show in confirmation and I was the joys and the pain of handling myself and of course I want to work with someone who can guide me in the right way. What I worry about it being forced to breed if I don’t want to or they decide they want the dog back or something else go arye.
Thank you for all the replies I learning a ton!![/QUOTE]

It would be rare that a good breeder would “force” you to breed your dog. That said, if your dog were truly so exceptional that your breeder thought they should be used in a well-established breeding program, you might not object.

My dog is very nice. His breeder thinks he’s exceptional. I am handling him myself because I want to; I have no doubt that if she were handling him he would have finished his championship long ago. But I have no desire to breed him myself – not without her help. She’s an expert in the breed, and nationally known. If she thought my dog would be an exceptional sire, I would definitely allow him to be bred. From that perspective, having a male is easier. But if I were truly against it, I can’t imagine her ever arguing – and especially if I owned a bitch instead of a dog.

The best thing you can do is research the breed AND the breeders. From my experience (in my breed), good breeders are thrilled to have newcomers enter the sport and are willing to help you find the right dog for you.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=spook1;5740930]
Hi All
A quick note (at work lol) I’ll say it again I luv this forum ! I have not read all the posts since last night. But someone asked about what breed I was interested in and it will be a setter. I understand that I will have to keep the dog/bitch unaltered because I Do want to show in confirmation and I was the joys and the pain of handling myself and of course I want to work with someone who can guide me in the right way. What I worry about it being forced to breed if I don’t want to or they decide they want the dog back or something else go arye.
Thank you for all the replies I learning a ton!![/QUOTE]

I’d suggest getting a boy. in most breeds the males are easier to get a conformation title on. No worries about blowing coat, etc. Having a boy also would mean not worrying about your beloved companion going through the risks of pregnancy.

Find a breeder you feel comfortable with. I co-own Iris with her breeder. I’d know her breeder for over 10 years before I bought a puppy from her. Her breeder has absolutely become my mentor. It was with great joy that we bred Iris for her first litter. We eagerly await her second litter whenever she cycles in. Just the other week we showed two puppies from the first litter and Iris’s sister as a group effort. So, co-ownership can be a fabulous experience with the right breeder.

And someone mentioned agility. Yes, training is huge but don’t overlook the genetics. Iris comes from a line of performance corgis. She’s been a great agility dog for me and her kids from the first litter are also solid agility dogs.

[Alagirl]

from what I understand from talking to breeders (a while back) co-owning is done (for the non show crowd) to control the off-spring. no decent breeder would want their product used in a mill situation or heaven forbid end up in the shelter.

naturally, the devil is in the detail (I don’t know if I would want to be the jr partner in such an arrangement…) and yes, get it in writing, have everything spelled out.

I also think that the breeders worth getting a dog from (in a lot of cases anyhow) will not part with a dog unless they are on the title…

So the inquiry about a pup is somewhere between a job interview and a wedding proposal…

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;5741475]
from what I understand from talking to breeders (a while back) co-owning is done (for the non show crowd) to control the off-spring. no decent breeder would want their product used in a mill situation or heaven forbid end up in the shelter.

naturally, the devil is in the detail (I don’t know if I would want to be the jr partner in such an arrangement…) and yes, get it in writing, have everything spelled out.

I also think that the breeders worth getting a dog from (in a lot of cases anyhow) will not part with a dog unless they are on the title…

So the inquiry about a pup is somewhere between a job interview and a wedding proposal…[/QUOTE]

Many good breeders, when selling to a non-breeding home, pet home, performance only home, keep the registration papers until proof of altering is sent, if they want to be sure the dog will be altered.

[threedogpack]

@S1969;5740674

OK, well, I guess I was making the assumption we were talking about GOOD breeders. Obviously a “breeder” who sells a dog with a breeding contract to a home that doesn’t intend to show it…they are not a GOOD breeder.

ummmmm, as stated previously, both of the dogs I got were from “good” breeders, as is the puppy I am sure I will be getting at some point in the future. Puppy one had championship parents and ancestors, had all the health testing etc. Puppy two was the same, g’parent topside was a Westminster BOB dog.

However, I wouldn’t necessarily assume that all co-ownerships are bad situations - they just need to be spelled out clearly.

true, each person needs to decide what is best for them and they need to decide where their personal preference/comfort zone is.

If you are searching for a top-quality show prospect, you may not be able to find one without co-ownership.

[threedogpack]

really, what it comes down to is to talk to the breeder. If you are comfortable with what they require, great! If you are not, talk some more and if you can’t find mutual ground…be polite, thank them for their time and expertise and move on.

It would be a good idea, however, to think about what your goals are and how to approach the conversation.

[Hannahsmom]

@Bluey;5741523

Many good breeders, when selling to a non-breeding home, pet home, performance only home, keep the registration papers until proof of altering is sent, if they want to be sure the dog will be altered.

Puppies can be sold on a limited registration which means no puppies from those dogs can be registered.

But the OP wants to show in conformation which is what changes things. I wanted a dog from a specific breeder, specific bitch. I knew how the breeder would raise her puppies, I knew what sire she was going to drive across country to breed to, etc. She required a co-ownership for non-limited registrations. I wanted to do performance but also do some showing in conformation. The breeder wasn’t going to sell me the dog with the conformation I wanted for performance as a pet unless it was pet quality for some other reason. He wasn’t. I went into the co-ownership with a contract and with clear discussion on all my concerns. I bought a boy as I didn’t want to have to interrupt a performance career for breeding. I didn’t want to neuter early. It has worked out perfectly. I have the dog with the conformation I wanted (finished by me at 9 months). The contract said I would keep him groomed and try to finish his championship but that if he wasn’t really show worthy we could change that. I don’t have people knocking my door down to beg to breed to him. Unless he was a superstar and really worthy of winning at the top competitions, that would be doubtful. He is now doing great in agility with me, having advanced to Excellent in four shows. He is really fast and a great jumper due to his great conformation and the fact that he is from both show and performance lines. This breeder cares about her breed and her puppies. I don’t have to worry about what happens to him if something should happen to me. Her name is still on him as co-owner but only because it no longer makes any difference to me. He’s been my dog since day one and I have made all the decisions.

Talk to some other people that have co-owned from your breeder. I do think some breeders use it in a bad way.

[Mara]

To the OP: do you have dog show experience, or have a close acquaintance with someone who is/has been actively involved in the breed show conformation world? If you want to get a dog to show and plan to do the training and handling yourself, I’d guess most breeders who are selling their show-quality pups are going to look for someone who’s traveled that road before, as they have a vested interest in the show careers of their kennel’s offspring. I don’t do it myself, but I understand it can be pretty expensive and time-consuming.

Everyone starts somewhere, though. Perhaps you can find a setter breeder who can spend some time with you and give you a good idea of what to expect? There are also some CoTHers who breed to show, or used to, and perhaps they can fill you in.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=S1969;5740674]
OK, well, I guess I was making the assumption we were talking about GOOD breeders. Obviously a “breeder” who sells a dog with a breeding contract to a home that doesn’t intend to show it…they are not a GOOD breeder. [/QUOTE]

@threedogpack;5741536

ummmmm, as stated previously, both of the dogs I got were from “good” breeders, as is the puppy I am sure I will be getting at some point in the future. Puppy one had championship parents and ancestors, had all the health testing etc. Puppy two was the same, g’parent topside was a Westminster BOB dog.

I wasn’t referring to you…I was referring to the people Bluey described in her obedience classes.

I don’t think a good breeder would sell a “breeding quality” dog to an inexperienced owner who doesn’t intend to show the dog…and then insist on using it for breeding. A good breeder might want to co-own a dog in an inexperienced home just so they can’t breed it.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Mara;5741613]
To the OP: do you have dog show experience, or have a close acquaintance with someone who is/has been actively involved in the breed show conformation world? If you want to get a dog to show and plan to do the training and handling yourself, I’d guess most breeders who are selling their show-quality pups are going to look for someone who’s traveled that road before, as they have a vested interest in the show careers of their kennel’s offspring. I don’t do it myself, but I understand it can be pretty expensive and time-consuming.

Everyone starts somewhere, though. Perhaps you can find a setter breeder who can spend some time with you and give you a good idea of what to expect? There are also some CoTHers who breed to show, or used to, and perhaps they can fill you in.[/QUOTE]

I think that it probably depends on the breed – not sure how easy it is to show setters successfully without a professional handler, so you’ll want to ask around about that. But they definitely would need professional show grooming, so if you can find a breeder near you that shows their dogs, you might be able to work together with the dog. My breeder lives very close to me and we go to a lot of shows together. I pay her to groom and sometimes I drive; sometimes she drives and I pay for gas. And I help her get any dogs she’s showing ready as well, which isn’t always great because then she beats me! But not all the time.

[spook1]

Hi Guys,
Mara, no the only exp. with showing dogs was when I was a child. I showed my grama Collies they were finished dogs and really I think they just let me show do give me something to do and i was like 9 so it was a long time ago.
I realize this venture is going to be a challenge but since showing horses looks very much like its coming to a end for me I would love to show dogs really for myself. I want to be able to finish a dog myself and have a beautiful pet. THAT is not to say I don’t want help I am looking for help from exp peeps. I know the breed I have chosen has a lot of grooming but I don’t mind that.I loved grooming my horses.

When I started thinking bout what does Co-owning really mean I knew I had to post. lol
I was curious since its a “co-owned” how such things as bills and other stuff but I see it can mean many different things. I am not against breeding if done in a very thought out way. But as with horses if it does good in the ring but its still so-so why bred? But that just me I was never into broodmares I like the showing part.

Thank you all again for the replies…everyone as added great points for to consider.

[iechris]

I’ve been reading this sitting here surrounded by my 4 co-owned dogs that live with me. I co-own 6 additional dogs that have never lived with me and probably never will. I am actively involved in breeding with the people I co-own my dogs with, who are my mentors in my breed.

Last year I bred my third litter, the first one I actually whelped out at my house (I’m listed as a breeder on two litters bred out of bitches I co-own). “My” litter has a total of 5 breeders listed, all 4 people who own my bitch (who was a stud fee puppy) plus my mother, who was added on for the litter via a lease agreement. And yes, there was a bit of paperwork involved. My fourth litter should be due in a few weeks and I will not be involved it in in any real way except enjoying the photos as it is one of the bitches who does not live with me.

As for who pays for what… with us whoever the dog lives with is the one who covers all the dog’s expenses, vet, showing, etc.

For me the big advantage of co-owning is that I have been fortunate enough to get some really nice dogs and also have my name on several nice litters. I co-bred a specialty winner this way. We keep everyones’ names on everything as that allows us all to show in bred by (co-owners are all AKC judges and can’t show anything they don’t own) and we can all share in the glory.

I would say if you are new to the breed you are interested in AND you want a bitch, if you want a nice one you are more than likely going to end up in a co-ownership situation. You may find someone willing to let you own a very nice bitch outright. The people I know who require co-ownerships do it mainly to retain some control over how the bitch is bred. Not only to make sure the bitch isn’t overbred, but sometimes to shall we say… help guide the direction the newer person wants to take their breeding program.

I personally would NEVER co-own a bitch on a contract that REQUIRED me to breed the bitch. It would be my choice if I felt I wanted a litter, I would not want to be forced into breeding a litter I really could not cope with. I also would never agree to a contract giving the bitch’s breeder first pick of any litter bred out of the bitch. If I breed a litter, I’m breeding for the pick for MYSELF. In the litter whelped at my house, I got to pick what I was keeping. We have had issues in my breed with a well known kennel that for oh… 40 years or more has sold breeding pairs on a breeding contract to novices. The new owners were required to breed their bitch and give the original breeders puppies back. This hasn’t always worked out well over the years. Others it worked well for and they were then able to break away and do their own thing.

It looks like you are in the Ocala area, which has a lot of shows and at least one active kennel club. If you aren’t already involved in your local kennel club, I’d join ASAP. It will allow you to network with others and also find out about things like handling classes and workshops that can be very helpful.

One final thought… my breed can be a bit closed at times. I know one girl who took about 3 years to finally get a bitch and then got one from an accidental litter bred by someone no one had ever heard of. She seems to be a great home, but many breeders turned her down. She said she only wanted to do agility and obedience, had no interest in showing but only wanted a bitch and would want to breed her and would not accept a co-ownership. No problem with any of that until the last two statement and those got her turned down by probably 20 different breeders.

[spook1]

IECHRIS,
I like your co ownership way…that sound reasonable. Yes being in ocala is a big advantage and just Fl in general. There seems to be a ton of shows here all year. I missed the club meeting this month cause of work but yes I will be getting involved soon.