[QUOTE=S1969;5741801]
I think that it probably depends on the breed – not sure how easy it is to show setters successfully without a professional handler, so you’ll want to ask around about that. [/QUOTE]
This statement is such a shame…no matter what breed you insert!
I can’t wait to start showing my first confirmation dog! Though I’m sure, as a first time newbie to the confirmation ring (in a very competitive breed), there will be plenty of tears in the car after 
[QUOTE=vtdobes;5742828]
This statement is such a shame…no matter what breed you insert!
I can’t wait to start showing my first confirmation dog! Though I’m sure, as a first time newbie to the confirmation ring (in a very competitive breed), there will be plenty of tears in the car after ;)[/QUOTE]
I agree, but no sense in leading someone down the wrong path if it’s true. It is my understanding that certain breeds (poodles, German Shepards) are nearly always handled by pros. Why? I don’t know. And in theory, it really shouldn’t matter…but maybe it does. 
I show my own dog, but it’s not uncommon in my breed for owners to handle…so if handling your own conformation dog is your goal, the OP may do well to find out how successful she will be with setters v. a different breed, different handler, or different show circuit.
If there are UKC shows nearby, that may be another option rather than AKC. I have never been to one and don’t think there are many in my area, but if they are near you that could be a great option too.
“I think that it probably depends on the breed – not sure how easy it is to show setters successfully without a professional handler, so you’ll want to ask around about that”
I would think setters are going to be tough to show but I like a challenge…:winkgrin:
What are some owner/handler breed? I am really set on a Setter but I am curious what make one breed easier to show over others.
VTDOBES…Good luck! I assume you are showing Dobermens .lol at teh last show i went to there was a HUGE class! Post a update when you do get to a show.
[QUOTE=spook1;5742905]
VTDOBES…Good luck! I assume you are showing Dobermens .lol at teh last show i went to there was a HUGE class! Post a update when you do get to a show.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the luck!!
Yes I have Dobermans! My boy won’t be 6 months until 8/16 and then there are conflicts on many weekends for horse shows, etc so he probably won’t show until our local VT show in October. In the past the Dobe class has not been huge and no big name handlers usually show up. He’ll go in the puppy class and maybe another depending on what they offer.
I’m sure someone has already covered this, and I missed it, but co-ownerships vary from breeder to breeder. Basically, a co-ownership means that the purchaser pays a reduced fee for the sale price of the dog. The purchaser is listed as a co-owner until the obligation has expired or will always remain co-owner.
A breeder will offer co-ownerships for several reasons, but their main reason is because the dog being offered is of show quality, and the breeder retains breeding rights to the dog (sometimes it’s sole rights, and sometimes it’s not…again - varies.)
A breeder may show the dog herself. A breeder may opt to hire a professional handler. A breeder may require the purchaser to handle the dog in the ring. It’s all up to the breeder and purchaser.
I have a contract here at my desk for a co-ownership for a dog (we opted against purchasing from this breeder, but I still have a copy of the contract - found it when we moved.) There are several stipulations, but they are mainly that the dog must be correct as far as conformation and temperament, must reach Championship status prior to breeding, must undergo ___________ health testing prior to breeding. B**ch (didn’t know if COTH would edit that) must be approved by the breeder and follow the same guidelines.
In the above contract, however, the breeder doesn’t retain ALL breeding rights. The breeder reserves the right to breed said dog 3 times in its life before signing over sole ownership to the purchaser. In this contract, the purchaser is responsible for showing and all fees, care and all fees, and if the purchaser wants the breeder to handle or pro handler to show said dog, the owner is responsible for all fees incurred.
If the dog does not meet conformation standards, temperament standard, or unable to fulfill its show career due to not meeting the conf./temp. standards, the dog must be spayed/neutered at the purchaser’s expense.
There is always an If-Then clause in there, too as in IF the co-owner is unable to keep dog or IF the co-owner is discovered to have bred dog, etc. THEN sole ownership reverts back to breeder and all fees incurred to get dog is the responsibility of the co-owner.
As someone said - EVERYTHING in writing, but then again, if someone has offered co-ownership, chances are they have a set contract already.
[QUOTE=HydroPHILE;5743165]
Basically, a co-ownership means that the purchaser pays a reduced fee for the sale price of the dog. The purchaser is listed as a co-owner until the obligation has expired or will always remain co-owner.[/QUOTE]
I would say that neither of these statements is always true. I would not expect a co-owned dog to be cheaper than a dog owned outright (sometimes yes, sometimes no).
I would not necessarily expect the breeder to remove their name unless it is specifically arranged in the agreement.
Just depends on what is agreed upon.
[QUOTE=S1969;5743270]
I would say that neither of these statements is always true. I would not expect a co-owned dog to be cheaper than a dog owned outright (sometimes yes, sometimes no).
I would not necessarily expect the breeder to remove their name unless it is specifically arranged in the agreement.
Just depends on what is agreed upon.[/QUOTE]
I guess you missed this part directly before what you quoted, and I’m pretty sure in the part you quoted I said “The purchaser is listed as a co-owner until the obligation has expired or will always remain co-owner:”
My overall point is bolded above
[QUOTE=HydroPHILE;5743530]
I guess you missed this part directly before what you quoted, and I’m pretty sure in the part you quoted I said “The purchaser is listed as a co-owner until the obligation has expired or will always remain co-owner:”
My overall point is bolded above ;)[/QUOTE]
OK, I guess I’m just read this differently, but it amounts to the same thing I guess. I was thinking that the purchaser would be the owner, and the breeder would be the co-owner. So the purchaser will always be listed as the owner, and the breeder may or may not continue to be listed as a co-owner.
Obviously - it all comes down to what your contract says…whether the co-owners are equal owners or one is “the owner” and the other retains “co-ownership” for breeding or other reasons.
But, my breeder told me this morning that if she co-owned my dog - that her signature is not required to register a litter sired by my dog. Only one signature is needed. If I owned a bitch, though, all signatures would be required.
However, if we had another contract in place that said otherwise, she could potentially sue me for breach of contract if I bred the dog. So, one is an AKC thing, and the other is obviously a civil thing.
Clearly…as we agree- the details dictate the relationship.
“However, if we had another contract in place that said otherwise, she could potentially sue me for breach of contract if I bred the dog. So, one is an AKC thing, and the other is obviously a civil thing.”
Given my occupation I ALWAYS worry about civil issues…:eek:
I have seen many (unrelated to animals) go very bad. After reading all the posts I see the breeders point a lot better. But are contracts from say breeder A vs. breeder B? Can they be written by a individual situation ?
[QUOTE=spook1;5743716]
After reading all the posts I see the breeders point a lot better. But are contracts from say breeder A vs. breeder B? Can they be written by a individual situation ?[/QUOTE]
I think that if you find a breeder you like and respect, you will not worry about this so much. I would have no problems co-owning a dog with my puppy’s breeder, or any number of other breeders I have met. Most of them are really looking only to a) protect the dog; and b) protect their reputation (by being involved in future breedings.)
[QUOTE=Houndhill;5740733]
Whoa, Bluey, I agree that it is certainly unethical to pressure anyone, especially an inexperienced owner who does not have an existing breeding program, to breed their dog! I think we are talking apples and oranges here…with a couple of exceptions, most of my puppies have gone to other established breeders and or/experienced homes to people I have known for some time. Those who have gone to primarily companion or performance homes, I would not have a problem with neutering. If it were a truly exceptional male, I might ask them if I could look at him before they neutered him. Then, if I thought I might really want to use him someday in my breeding program, (probably I would have kept a sibling or and/or another breeder would have one so it would seem unusual), I would feel I had to pay for all the pre-breeding health tests (OFA hips and elbows, CERF, echocardiogram for my breed), then pay to have him collected and pay for the storage of the semen before he was neutered. If the owner wanted to spay a companion bitch, I would probably be pleased, one less thing to worry about. But I wouldn’t have let her go if I did not trust the new owners to make good decisions for her. I still would want my name on her, and so far no one has seemed reluctant (even a couple of attorneys as I think about it!) as it is
customary in my breed. You just never know what will happen, divorce,
death, illness etc., and I prefer to have that little bit of assurance that I could
get a hound back quickly if the situation arose, even though there is a contract
to that effect.
That is different than co-owning a bitch puppy that goes to another breeder, with the understanding that if she is someday bred, I might like a puppy. Or is a male, that I might like to use him.
But, certainly the co-ownership should never be used to encourage or pressure people who do not have any business breeding dogs to do so. I am afraid you are right, though, I have also heard of cases where it is, rarely in my breed though, thank goodness! It does happen, no question.
If I were looking for a companion or performance dog, with no intention of breeding, I would probably prefer not to have a co-ownership, and probably would try to work something out with the breeder who usually had that arrangement. But I would try to keep an open mind, and address any concerns both parties might have, and not rule it out. Hopefully you both just want what is in the best long term interests of the puppy.[/QUOTE]
I agree with Houndhill. I am a second generation breeder and also an AKC judge. I have co owned dogs as both the breeder and also gotten dogs from others breeder on a co ownerships.
First and foremost is trust. If the OP wants to get a show dog, she best meet and get to know some breeders first! LEARN about the breed first!!! If someone emailed me about a puppy, I would be very reluctant to trust them before I knew them and they need to take the time to get to know me and my dogs! I want to see some effort on the part of the new person that they want to learn and grow in my breed not just someone who wants the glory of a winning show dog!
As far as “just getting a pet” for agility or another performance event, find out why it is “Just a pet”!!! If you buy a mismarked dog OK, but if you buy one with some type of conformation issue, that could affect the future performance of the “pet dog”… Why do peoplel think that the pet dog would be great in Agility??? Would you buy a horse with a bad fault and expect it to become a top Jumper or reining horse??? There is a reason we have breed standards! Dog shows are just not beauty shows!!! “Form follows Function”.
OK, class over…:winkgrin:
“First and foremost is trust. If the OP wants to get a show dog, she best meet and get to know some breeders first! LEARN about the breed first!!! If someone emailed me about a puppy, I would be very reluctant to trust them before I knew them and they need to take the time to get to know me and my dogs! I want to see some effort on the part of the new person that they want to learn and grow in my breed not just someone who wants the glory of a winning show dog!”
AZDQ I agree with this. That is why I have started just going to some shows watching the classes and lurking in the grooming area learning how they do things. I also know I want a Setter it has been the breed in my head since my first encounter at age 7. I am leaning forwards Gordon’s or English…a bit more towards Gordons though… I have read a couple books on them so far and looking for a few more.
This will not be a spur of the moment decision. It will be well though out and I will go as well armed as I can…lol
Not saying that ALL “pet quality” puppies will do well in agility/performance, but you really have to know your breed’s flaws - overbite/undershot jaw might kill you in the breed ring, but isn’t going to hurt a lick in performance (unless it’s severe enough to mess with the way a dog might pick up a dumbbell).
In my breed, though, as an agility competitor - I rather prefer the little shrimpy, not type-y enough for the breed ring dogs - my girls are all considered much too small for the breed ring, and my no. 1 girl isn’t angulated enough in front for the breed ring - but those characteristics make her wicked good for agility, and I suspect she’ll stay much sounder over the long haul because she doesn’t totally fit the standard as it’s judged today. (Which is not to say that I don’t personally know of a couple of really awesome dual champions - CH/MACH - but to balance those out, I know of several dogs that are more “conformation-bred” that have proved to have conformation that has severely limited or even precluded them from having agility careers.)
Certainly this isn’t going to be true in every breed, and I’m not trying to make an either/or all or nothing kind of statement, but, especially in breeds that are a bit more extreme in type (for good or ill), the dog who isn’t a great contender for the breed ring might be a better choice for a performance career.
I do think that it’s sad that in some breeds there is such a huge gap between the conformation and performance types/lines.
[QUOTE=Arizona DQ;5744508]
As far as “just getting a pet” for agility or another performance event, find out why it is “Just a pet”!!! If you buy a mismarked dog OK, but if you buy one with some type of conformation issue, that could affect the future performance of the “pet dog”… Why do peoplel think that the pet dog would be great in Agility??? Would you buy a horse with a bad fault and expect it to become a top Jumper or reining horse??? There is a reason we have breed standards! Dog shows are just not beauty shows!!! “Form follows Function”.
OK, class over…:winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
I couldn’t agree with you more. There’s a whole lot more to being a top notch agility prospect than being a reject for the conformation ring. I want the corgi with the conformation solid enough to go in the breed ring, but with a little special something in terms of drive.
You’ll see from my post above I couldn’t agree with you more. After years in horses eventing, it’s all about structure if you are in it for the long haul for performance. The OP needs to keep both things in mind when searching for a puppy, not just breed type.
[QUOTE=vtdobes;5742828]
This statement is such a shame…no matter what breed you insert!
I can’t wait to start showing my first confirmation dog! Though I’m sure, as a first time newbie to the confirmation ring (in a very competitive breed), there will be plenty of tears in the car after ;)[/QUOTE]
The first thing you have to learn is that it is ConFORMation, not confirmation! The dog must CONFORM to the breed standard!
[QUOTE=bdj;5744868]
I do think that it’s sad that in some breeds there is such a huge gap between the conformation and performance types/lines.[/QUOTE]
I agree totally! Some breeds have really gone from original function to “Generic Show Dog”. But we could point some fingers at some of the halter classes in some horse breeds as well…:no:
[QUOTE=Arizona DQ;5745420]
The first thing you have to learn is that it is ConFORMation, not confirmation! The dog must CONFORM to the breed standard![/QUOTE]
Thanks! Conformation vs “confirmation” is sort of a fingernail on the chalkboard thing for some of us, sorry!!
Very common, though, but most unfortunate.
On a different note, I wanted to comment on the above. Although I love the looks of the English Setter they seem extremely split between performance and conformation. The Gordons seem able to cross over more easily. There is a gal who locally shows her nice looking Gordon in agility. I have also seen a few gorgeous Irish setters, one of which I am sure was also shown in the breed ring based on its grooming job, and they were very good in agility. Personally I would lean towards one of those breeds or the Red and White vs. the English Setter if I wanted to do it all. My breed does not have a huge split between breeding for performance vs. breed ring fortunately.
I only had time to read a few responses, but since there are so many, I’m guessing most of what I’ll add has already been said…lol
Co-ownership can be heaven or pure hell. If there is something that does not feel “quite right” in a contract, believe me, by the time you are well into it, you will rue the day you signed it.
I had an import GSD that I wanted sooooo badly that I was willing to deal with the devil to get her. I signed a stupid co-ownership that gave 2 litters of puppies to the co-owner. Fine right? After all, I wanted to compete not breed. Well DUH…I worked my tail ff competing and titling and the co-owner got the 2k per puppy on two litters. DOPE SLAP.
Loved my girlie…but oh BOY was I stupid, stupid, STUPID. What we THINK we can accept may not be the case long term. Then what?
But…I also had several co-ownerships on dogs that came from the west coast to be shown…it was a heavenly relationship. The breeder and I talked ad nauseum about both parties wishes and concerns…got lots of references on each other. Yes, I checked HER references to see if she rode a broom by night, or if she was ethical and honest in her dealings.
We went on to co own many many dogs over the years and had a successful almost “sister” relationship by the time we both pretty much retired from the ring.
After my first hideous burn, I made darned sure I didn’t get shackled by another contract that stripped me of a full half ownership with full half rights to decisions, and I INSIST on “and” not OR on the co-own.
After my dogs retired, my partner signed off and they lived out their days here. This was home and she had no intention of “taking” them from me. From day one she maintained that she just wanted to “go along for the ride” and have her name attached when she saw the wins printed. Can’t blame her there! I was always respectful and gave all our shared puppies her kennel name inserted with mine, even tho she actually never asked me to.
So long answer but…do NOT hesitate to ask for references from other co-owners to see what they have to say about the breeder. Think about what your plans are and how they MIGHT change.
Now I also say as a breeder, ALL my show quality puppies went on co-ownerships as well, and if there were any pet quality, they went on strict s/n contracts with no papers given til spay/nueter cert was mailed to me. As my breed can require more experience than most, I also required a minimum obed training, and again, never had anyone NOT do it.
As far as what we required I’m sure many have given input on that…no breeding without titles, and required health certs, and only with approved males etc. Pretty standard.
Never had anyone not hold up their end of our deals, so other than being held ransome by Satan in my first co-own, my others have all been wonderful relationships. =)
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