"Color pros" -- Question about Dun coloring

[sfstable]

I have a one month colt and I am trying to decide what color he is. He is a GRP by FS Daily Hero who is a “golden zebra dun” out of a New Forest mare who is bay.

Color predictor says 40+% chance bay and 40+% chance dun.

I am beginning to think he is not bay especially now that he is losing his baby coat. He looks “yellow dun” to me except he does not have a dorsal stripe.

Here is a link to his picture (he is shedding in the face): http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=438287&id=10150100457545710&saved#!/photo.php?pid=13387215&id=10150100457545710. If you look at the rest of the album there are a few other pictures at a couple days of birth.

My questions are: 1) can the dorsal stripe come later ? 2) and if so, how long after birth do you expect to see it and what is the latest you would see it appear 3) is there a color test for dun yet ?

TIA:)

[JB]

The thing about foal coats is they tend to really magnify a dun’s dorsal stripe, even magnify a normal countershading dorsal stripe. I don’t even see a hint of one here, and I can clearly see his spine.

He appears to be “just” bay with a heavy dose of pangare, lightening him up.

FWIW, I looked up his sire. How has it been determined he’s a dun? He does not look dun at all

[sfstable]

My colt does not have a dorsal stripe at all – no hint. So I have been calling him a bay. But the baby shedding out has got me stumped because he is shedding out “yellowish”. I have never seen this coloring (and I have lots of bays which is my favorite color :)).

So that got me wondering if the dorsal stripe can show up later. I don’t want to mis-mark his coloring when I register him.

[RougeEmpire]

Having just looked at the photos of his sire http://www.throughconnection.com/FSDailyHero.html

I am 99% sure he(stallion) is JUST as BAY and not at all a dun. I have a dun stallion and have seen a LOT of dun babies off colors red, claybank, grulla, zebra ect ect ect. A lot of breeders know basicly nothing about color and decide to name their stallion a color he is not without doing ANY color research. For some reason I have found MANY warmblood breeders who just love the idea of a dun stallion and for some reason decide their plain BAY is dun! In order to produce a dun at least one parent MUST be a dun, it does NOT skip generations. Im pretty darn sure there is NO DUN in FSDailyHero’s genetics. In order for HIM to be a dun mom or dad would have had to be a dun too!

Also there “coloring” of him is VERY misleading a horse is either Bay OR Dun there is no such thing as a “Golden Bay Zebra Dun”. Dun is a DILUTE, a Dun bred to a Bay results (usually) in a “Zebra Dun” or just a “Dun” (as apposed to “red dun”, ‘claybank’, Lobo Dun ect) Also a horse MUST have a dorsal stripe to BE a dun, it looks likes your colt does not have a dun stripe as well it appears that his sire does not have a dun stripe meaning neither of them are dun.

[columbus]

Dun or dilute

The first thing you need to figure out is if the mare is dun or dilute or both as the British Isles folk call both duns and dilutes dun. All colors except spotted are allowed in New Forest including dun and dilute. The foal looks like it could be buckskin not dun…definately not dun. Like in Quarter Horses perhaps it is not uncommon for a New Forest to be both dun and dilute. So has the sire and dam been color tested. It also looks like the whole color thing could be confused by black shading if that is the belly of his mother as the background. PatO

[columbus]

Foals

In the pictures of the sires foals there looks like a palomino in front of what seems a bay. Though I agree the sire doesn’t look like a buckskin…and dun(Du) is a seperate gene it is not dilute(Cr). It is a MODIFYING gene as is dilute. They modify the base color…which in the instance of the foal in question is bay. To me it looks like your foal is possibly dilute but not dun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dun_gene
PatO

[columbus]

RougeEmpire?

I think you need to look at the colors of his offspring…SOMEONE is a dun. PatO

[sfstable]

[QUOTE=columbus;4953986]
The first thing you need to figure out is if the mare is dun or dilute or both as the British Isles folk call both duns and dilutes dun. All colors except spotted are allowed in New Forest including dun and dilute. The foal looks like it could be buckskin not dun…definately not dun. Like in Quarter Horses perhaps it is not uncommon for a New Forest to be both dun and dilute. So has the sire and dam been color tested. It also looks like the whole color thing could be confused by black shading if that is the belly of his mother as the background. PatO[/QUOTE]

The dam of my colt is definately bay. In the picture she looks lighter than she actually is – she has nice dapples right now

Funny that you would mention buckskin because someone asked me the other day if he was buckskin but I don’t think that there is any cream gene involved and the color calculator did not give me that as a color option. So I ruled that one out

He probably is just bay but it is a very pretty (okay handsome) color of bay coming out

[Twisting]

If you look at the veeery bottom of the sire’s page it has pictures of his ancestors. it looks like his sire’s dam was a palamino, (though the sire looks like he was just chestnut) hard to tell if his dam was also a palamino but it is possible, but it may mean he’s a darker buckskin. Which would give your guy the possibility of being a buckskin.

Lots of people mix up dun and cream, and there is definately cream in the line, not sure if it made it to him, but it can be tested for.

[Ridge_Runner]

I’ve seen that stallion up close. He’s a bay with countershading…not a true dun. He does have some nice countershading but I’m pretty sure he’s not a true dun factor.

Dun factor foals will ALWAYS have a dorsal stripe unless it’s blocked by a white pattern or something. All other dun factor markings are optional but that one is not. It will be present in the foal coat. Our breed has a LOT of duns.

The last two foals on my site below are dun factor. Unfortunately you can’t see the dorsal stripes on either one with those pics but they are there. You can get a sense of the shade. The colt seems to be shedding into a copper dun and the filly we’re not sure yet. We think she’s a grulla roan.

http://www.rbefarm.com/Rainbows_End_Farm_2/Foals_of_2010.html

On this pic you can see the dorsal stripe.

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z144/hau_kea/10foals/IMG_7563.jpg

[columbus]

Don’t rule out colors

Unless they are tested you can easily have dilutes and duns hiding in other colors. For years they hid in Morgans…smutty buckskins can look just like smutty bays. If there is a lot of black shading in your breeds you cant tell colors unless you do genetic testing sometimes. Colors tend to clump together. In Irish Draught we have a dun line…real dun. and we have one dilute line. They are in the same horses probably because people interested in color collected them and bred them to each other. This is what has happened in QHs. Duns and dilutes are often dunskins and dunalinos. A breed like Highland Pony names their duns http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_pony
PatO

[sfstable]

[QUOTE=Twisting;4954046]
If you look at the veeery bottom of the sire’s page it has pictures of his ancestors. it looks like his sire’s dam was a palamino, (though the sire looks like he was just chestnut) hard to tell if his dam was also a palamino but it is possible, but it may mean he’s a darker buckskin. Which would give your guy the possibility of being a buckskin.

Lots of people mix up dun and cream, and there is definately cream in the line, not sure if it made it to him, but it can be tested for.[/QUOTE]

You know, I think I will go ahead and test him for the cream gene, the test is cheap enough. I went back and looked at the ancestor coloring and you may be right. The girl who works for me swears the colt is buckskin. All I know is that the bay coloring is very different than any plain bay I have ever had.

I did not breed this colt for coloring – I just love the sire and his line. I specifically leased this mare to breed to him.

[JB]

Having paid attention more to registry/breed of the stallion, he may very well be buckskin. Certain breed registries have a bad habit of referring to buckskin as dun :rolleyes:

He doesn’t scream buckskin, but it’s entirely possible.

I still think the OP foal is just a light bay (at this point anyway, he might shed out darker).

Columbus is right about cream hiding. Morgans are notorious for this. This is a palomino. Really!

[sfstable]

He is shedding out lighter. I took this picture this morning (with my iphone). You can see the lighter color coming out.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=438287&id=10150100457545710&saved#!/photo.php?pid=13392961&id=10150100457545710

I am pulling tail hairs today and testing for the cream dilution and the red/black factor. Anything else I should check ?

I will post results when I get them back.

Thanks for everyone’s help so far.

[irkenequine]

Columbus is right about cream hiding. Morgans are notorious for this. This is a palomino. Really!

Oh good lord, why do I even bother guessing. We should just be forced to color test anything that hits the ground, who knows how many are hiding

[Dalemma]

Wh![](le anything is possible…both mare and stallion look like bright bays…chestnut body with black mane and tail…and baby appears to be the same coloring. It would be interesting to see the results of testing.

I have a quarter horse that AQHA says is bay but I did testing and he is positive for dun markers. And you can see a dorsal stripe plus bars on his shoulders.

In this pic you can see the shoulder barring and dorsal stripe

[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/DalEmma2002/Dennystripe.jpg)

[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s77/DalEmma2002/Denny2006a.jpg)

Dalemma

[JB]

irken - :lol: :lol: Yep, it can be really, really tricky sometimes!

Dalemma - yep, leave it up to the AQHA (or APHA, or JC for that matter) to get a color right :rolleyes:

[crestline]

I saw this guy go at the 100DT and I totally believed he was dun/dilute/something. I sort of thought he had a dorsal stripe but can’t see it on the pics/ video on his website. I’m pretty sure he had leg barring. Maybe it was too long ago for me to remember details correctly…but man…that boy can JUMP and I’ve been smitten ever since so it’s nice to see an offspring photo!

[JB]

Mane frosting is pretty typical for a buckskin. Sooty can easily put leg and wither barring. I would fully expect a horse who has leg and wither barring due to dun to also have face webbing, and I just don’t see it on this stallion. Sooty can also go as far as darkening/strengthening the spine shading.

I think he’s buckskin with light sooty.

[sfstable]

[QUOTE=crestline;4954681]
I saw this guy go at the 100DT and I totally believed he was dun/dilute/something. I sort of thought he had a dorsal stripe but can’t see it on the pics/ video on his website. I’m pretty sure he had leg barring. Maybe it was too long ago for me to remember details correctly…but man…that boy can JUMP and I’ve been smitten ever since so it’s nice to see an offspring photo![/QUOTE]

This colt is really something special I am super pleased with him. His dam can really jump too

I specifically bred this cross to produce a pony who could do the jumpers for my daughter who is 4’11" and 23 years old. And I was pleased to get a colt. We had been planning on going “across the pond” to purchase a pony stallion jumper but maybe we won’t have to now. We’ll see how he matures and if he gets to keep the “family jewels”.

[QUOTE=JB;4954624]irken - :lol: :lol: Yep, it can be really, really tricky sometimes!

Dalemma - yep, leave it up to the AQHA (or APHA, or JC for that matter) to get a color right :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Exactly why I am questioning color, I don’t want to mess up the color on his registration papers. I had been planning on marking “bay”.