Color question. What exactly is brown?

[hluing]

Hello,
Probably a very simple question…but what is a brown horse? I have a filly this year that has stumped me as to color. When she was born, I would have sworn she was black. Had that silver, mousy overcoat that all of my black foals have had. However, in a few days that silvery color was more golden. Ok, I thought. Dark bay. However, she has NO black points. Both clipped and now with winter coat, she is a milk chocolate color head to toe.

So is this brown? Her dam is chestnut and sire is black (heterozygous). If brown is indeed a color, how do the genetics work with it?

TIA

[Nootka]

Do you have any pictures of her? Foal coat and after shed?

Brown is indeed a color.

[JB]

Yes, it’s a color

It’s the same gene as that which causes bay. Agouti has 3 “on” forms - bay (A), brown (At), and wild bay (A+).

If the sire is truly black and not himself a very dark brown (picture of him?) then you know the brown came from the chestnut dam.

The dam may be carrying 1 copy of bay and brown, or both brown, or just 1 brown.

Agouti only acts on black pigment, so doesn’t affect a chestnut. Because the sire gave a copy of his black E, making the foal black-based, it allows Agouti to affect the color by turning black into (in this case) brown.

[Hippolyta]

@hluing;6633820

. However, she has NO black points. Both clipped and now with winter coat, she is a milk chocolate color head to toe.

If she has no black points, she is not brown. Liver chestnut?

[Home_Again_Farm]

I have had black foals born mousy, silvery, then go an odd brownish, yellowish color and then shed out black and also test true black. The brown horses I have had have all had a muzzle that was sort of beige-brown.

[JB]

[QUOTE=Hippolyta;6635640]
If she has no black points, she is not brown. Liver chestnut?[/QUOTE]
Not all browns have black points. Most do, but not all.

Some look quite homogenous in leg and body color.

[hluing]

I figured it had to come from the dam. Sire is true black and has been tested. Can you do testing for this brown part of agouti or would it be just regular agouti testing. What happens when brown combines with dilute colors? Ie. if I crossed her with a palomino?

[Nootka]

if crossed with a pali you could get the smokey brown color

http://blacktreefarm.com/pages/yeagergf.html

http://www.truecoloursfarm.com/news/?page_id=93

[JB]

Pet DNA Services of AZ is the only place to test for brown, and they ONLY do the Agouti test in horses now. So yes, you can test for it

Smoky brown is a dilute brown, and you see what that can look like

If you look also at www.glenhillfarm.com under the '11 foals, you’ll see Pacific Coast (click more info for newer pics) who is also a smoky brown

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=JB;6636249]
Not all browns have black points. Most do, but not all.

Some look quite homogenous in leg and body color.[/QUOTE]

Definitely not true. Brown can be present with no black points.

Below are a few photos of our brown mare - she has a jet black mane and tail. But as you can see, no black points on the legs or head.

The next photos are our smoky brown hunter pony. Again, no black points, though she also has a jet black mane and tail. (Sire was palomino/dam bay)

And can I just say, I HATE the new forum! :mad: I can no longer post photos.

Since the new forum posting abilities blow and you can’t see the photos posted above, here are links directly to the two mares:

http://www.daventryequestrian.com/Graduates/quest.html

http://www.daventryequestrian.com/Graduates/outpastdark.html

[Hippolyta]

But does OP horse have black mane & tail? I took her description to mean that the horse had no black anywhere.

[JB]

That’s the point - brown horses don’t HAVE to have black points anywhere - legs, mane, tail, none of it. They can have ALL brown hair, chocolate, sooty looking, whatever, just not black.

[Hippolyta]

Really? I did not know this at all. Everything I have read said that the brown allele at the agouti locus limited the expression of black to the pts, like the bay allele, only less so (black appears in larger amounts than with the bay allele).

I did not know it could eliminate the black altogether. I can’t find a reference that says this anywhere.

[EquusMagnificus]

[QUOTE=Hippolyta;6637800]
Really? I did not know this at all. Everything I have read said that the brown allele at the agouti locus limited the expression of black to the pts, like the bay allele, only less so (black appears in larger amounts than with the bay allele).

I did not know it could eliminate the black altogether. I can’t find a reference that says this anywhere.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think she means brown suppresses black rather that it can be present without agouti?

[JB]

yes, technically, Agouti starts suppressing black. Wild bay does it the most, hence the low to nearly non-existent black on the legs. Bay does it to a lesser degree, and brown to an even lesser degree. That’s also the theoretical dominance order - wild bay over bay over brown. The bay/brown relationship is known for sure since both are testable. An AAt horse will present as bay (assuming black-based).

But brown is…different somehow. For one, it gives that golden/orangey undertone to the color, where bay has a red undertone. And while the points are usually black, they might not be - they might be the same chocolate as the body, or maybe a darker chocolate but still “brown” and not black.

What reference are you looking for? I’ve seen enough tested brown horses with brown points to know it’s true

[hluing]

She has a blackish mane and tail but hAs a lot of golden color in it.

[L_L]

[QUOTE=Nootka;6636456]
if crossed with a pali you could get the smokey brown color

http://blacktreefarm.com/pages/yeagergf.html

http://www.truecoloursfarm.com/news/?page_id=93[/QUOTE]

I find the term smokey brown muddies waters … isn’t it more correct to say brownskin?

A smokey black is a black horse + cream and no agouti.

A Smokey cream is a black horse + 2 x cream and no agouti

Brown horses granted are also black based but they still have A even if it is At

[Nootka]

That is a good question. What is the offical color of a brown creme? Single and Double Dilute?

[hluing]

Whatever the official name, it is not nearly as flashy as buckskin Maybe I will do the color testing to see for sure what I have.

[JB]

@L&L;6643254

I find the term smokey brown muddies waters … isn’t it more correct to say brownskin?

A smokey black is a black horse + cream and no agouti.

So why shouldn’t it follow that “smoky brown” is a brown horse + cream?