Color Testing

[FaithView]

So I’ve never color tested a horse, but I’d like to for my colt. Im trying through UCDavis but theres so many options and I’m not sure which I’m supposed to choose. He’s listed as a Perlino.

I also wanted to know, other than breeding is there any big reason you should have your horse color tested? Or is it really just for “knowing”
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[TD]Coat Color Panel - (Red Factor, Agouti, Champagne, Cream, Dun, Gray*, Pearl, Silver)[/TD]
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Red Factor and Agouti Panel[/TD]
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White Pattern Panel 1 - (Tobiano, LWO, Sabino-1, Splashed White, Dominant White)[/TD]
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White Pattern Panel 2 - (Gray*, Tobiano, LWO, Sabino-1, Splashed White, Leopard, Pattern-1, Dominant White)[/TD]
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Appaloosa Panel 1 - (Leopard, Pattern-1, Red Factor, Agouti, Splashed White, Dominant White)[/TD]
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Appaloosa Panel 2 - (Leopard, Pattern-1)[/TD]
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Full Color/Pattern Panel - (Combination of Coat Color Panel and White Pattern Panel 2)[/TD]
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[TD]Note: Gray* test in panels only detects presence or absence of gray. The panel report does not provide the number of copies of the gray gene.[/TD]
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[TD] [HR][/HR][/TD]
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Horse Coat Color / Pattern Tests [/TR]
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Agouti[/TD]
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Brindle 1[/TD]
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Champagne[/TD]
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Cream[/TD]
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Dominant White (W5, W10, W20, W22)[/TD]
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Dun[/TD]
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Gray[/TD]
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Leopard Complex (LP/CSNB)[/TD]
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Lethal White Overo[/TD]
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Pattern-1 (PATN1)[/TD]
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Pearl[/TD]
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Red Factor[/TD]
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Roan Zygosity[/TD]
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Sabino-1[/TD]
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Silver[/TD]
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Splashed White[/TD]
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Tiger Eye[/TD]
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Tobiano[/TD]
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[Scribbler]

What does his color look like? What does UC Davis recommend?

[FaithView]

@Scribbler

What does his color look like? What does UC Davis recommend?

I was unaware they could suggest certain panels. The link I found goes right to ordering them (along with filling in the horses and your information.)

He looks like a Perlino, and the seller swore up and down on it, but I know Cremellos and Perlinos are very similar to one another.

[Scribbler]

Cremello is double dilute on chestnut (palomino) and perlino is double dilute on bay (buckskin). If anything a perlino can have a greyish tint to the tail as a residue of the black tail of a bay.

In terms of genetics a double dilute stallion should produce dilute foals 100% of the time. Buckskin, perlino, palomino, cremello, or smoky black, depending on the mare’s color genetics.

How much are the color tests? I’ve heard they are quite affordable. If you get everything for one price, go for it.

Otherwise it sounds like what you really want to know is his base color. Is he base black, red, or bay (which is black plus agouti)? Also you might want to know if there is dun or champagne in there.

In general color testing is only for curiousity or for breeding. I doubt I’d get a gelding tested unless it had some reference back to an active breeding program.

The other one to be aware of is Frame Overo. It is the somewhat less common “lacey” pinto pattern. It can be hidden in a double pinto Overo /Tovero cross and it can be genetically present but minimally expressed in high socks and a blaze.

Frame Overo matters because if you breed two horses with the gene you have a 25% chance of getting a homozygous Frame Overo which is always born pure white and underdeveloped and dies at birth. All living Frame Overo Paints and pintos are therefore heterozygous. They have no health problems beyond the usual sunburn on white noses.

If you have a grey or double dilute stock horse I would also run pinto tests especially Frame Overo because tell tale white markings could be hidden under the pale coat. Pinto genetics are common enough in the stock breeds even though QH has tried to exile them all to Paint registry.

I have a nice chestnut Frame Overo Paint mare and I would be devastated if I bred her to a double dilute stud hoping for a palomino paint foal, and got a lethal white foal because the stud had minimally expressed Frame Overo that we hadn’t know about.

Likewise her own adult colt is grey (grey sire) and you can only see his markings if he’s wet. But we know he carries Frame Overo because of those markings.

[Twisting]

Some colors have genetic issues tied to them. One example is Silver, a single copy carrying horse is usually fine, but a double copy carrying horse will almost always have issues with its eyes. You can’t tell the difference between a single or double copy without testing (or knowing one parent wasn’t silver.)

Also, some folks like to test foals to see if they are carrying gray, especially if their coat pattern makes it difficult to tell. Appy can also be fairly minimal on a foal, but increases over time so testing can confirm the presence of the gene.

But yes, most of the not-for-breeding purposes color testing is just for the fun of knowing.

[bugsynskeeter]

What color are his parents?

[FaithView]

@bugsynskeeter

What color are his parents?

buckskin and smokey black

[Scribbler]

He’s likely perlino. That’s double dilute on bay. To get a cremello you’d need double dilute on chestnut. Perlino and cremello can be very similar.

[Simkie]

The coat color panel–option one on your list–will tell you what you want to know here.

Red factor and agouti is red/black/bay and included in option one.

The white panel tests tell you about pinto or grey genes.

Appaloosa panel tests tell you about appy genes.

If you’re planning on standing your colt at stud, knowing what color genes he carries can be useful in how you market him and how you set expectations with your mare owners. (If you are going to stand him, the frame test is a good idea, since it’s not always clear visually if the horse might carry that one, and frame to frame breeding risks a lethal white foal.)

If he’s not to be bred, then it’s more of an fyi sort of thing. Nothing wrong with that, though I tested my grey mare, for no other reason than I was curious.

[bugsynskeeter]

We do most of our color testing through Animal Genetics, as it tends to be faster. But if you are doing an AQHA 5-Panel, I’d do the UCD color genetics at the same time.

Chances are he is perlino with a buckskin x smokey creme cross. But there is a small chance he’s cremello. Really only matters if you plan to use that as part of your marketing to stand him.

[JB]

@FaithView

buckskin and smokey black

You technically have the options of all 3 double dilutes, especially if you know each parent has a red-based parent. If you know at least 1 parent is EE (homozygous for black), then you can skip the Extension test as the foal has to be EE or Ee, and if you don’t need/want to know for breeding, it doesn’t matter

If you know the Buckskin is AA, you can skip the Agouti test.

But if you don’t know either of those, then you need both. Assuming he’s really light (as in, no doubt he’s double dilute) then obviously you don’t need the Cream test. So based on the extension/agouti test, and the coat color panel test, then choose whichever is cheaper.

Perlino and smoky cream are more likely to be confused for each other, but certainly a perlino might be so light as to be confused for cremello. Without knowing the extension or agouti status of the parents, the most likely scenario is perlino, just based on odds. So essentially just the agouti and extension test is all you need to know for sure.

As for the rest, other than Silver and LP, which can lead to eye issues, there’s no need to test if it’s not a breeding animal, other than curiosity.

There are other non-color tests that can be done to help manage the health of the horse - PSSM 1/2, HYPP, IMM, HERDA (I might have left out 1 or 2) - but unless you’re dealing with stock horse blood you’re not dealing with HYPP or HERDA, some breeds are more predisposed to PSSM than others (and specific types, TBs more likely to be Type 2 (if the’re going to have it), WBs more likely to be Type 1 (and more predisposed to having it in the first place, than TBs), that sort of thing

[FaithView]

@bugsynskeeter

We do most of our color testing through Animal Genetics, as it tends to be faster. But if you are doing an AQHA 5-Panel, I’d do the UCD color genetics at the same time.

Chances are he is perlino with a buckskin x smokey creme cross. But there is a small chance he’s cremello. Really only matters if you plan to use that as part of your marketing to stand him.

I went to animal genetics, I haven’t dug too much but it looks like theres only one option. Does that include base color, dilutions, and pattern genes? (Those are whats listed in a separate page description of color genetics in general but im not sure if it’s implying that thats what the test determines)

[bugsynskeeter]

https://www.animalgenetics.us/Forms/EquineUS2015.pdf

Its all specified in the order form. They often have specials, so give them a shout and ask if there are any current specials.

[jvanrens]

If I remember correctly the OPs horse is AQHA. The only test results they accept are UC Davis. So something to keep in mind when doing the testing if you do end up breeding him or wanting the results added to his papers.

[FaithView]

@jvanrens

If I remember correctly the OPs horse is AQHA. The only test results they accept are UC Davis. So something to keep in mind when doing the testing if you do end up breeding him or wanting the results added to his papers.

thankyou! He is, thats good to know!

also, so the father is a color tested Smokey black. So that would mean Ee or EE for the red gene, N/Cr for the creme gene, and aa for the Agouti. Is there a huge difference between Ee and EE? Im kinda imaging these the same way you would do Punnett squares, is that correct? So if the father was Ee and the mother was also Ee, it’s still possible for him to be a cremello with ee?

this is so complicated I know, Im just trying to get a better understanding of colors!

[poltroon]

It’s good to know he’s a QH, because that also influences the choice of what to test for.
If you’re thinking about him as a breeding stallion, I’d probably spring for the Full Color/Pattern panel. He’s pale so you might not see all the white, plus white can hide. It’s not that much more money than just the Coat Color panel which you already want to know.

You say the parents are buckskin and smoky black but unless they are tested to those colors, you might also have dun or pearl in there and not know it.

[jvanrens]

@FaithView

thankyou! He is, thats good to know!

also, so the father is a color tested Smokey black. So that would mean Ee or EE for the red gene, N/Cr for the creme gene, and aa for the Agouti. Is there a huge difference between Ee and EE? Im kinda imaging these the same way you would do Punnett squares, is that correct? So if the father was Ee and the mother was also Ee, it’s still possible for him to be a cremello with ee?

this is so complicated I know, Im just trying to get a better understanding of colors!

I’m far from an expert, but his sire would be E_aa (_ being unknown) unless tested otherwise. The dam would be E_A_. So yes if both are Ee your colt could be red based.

I’ve seen comparison pictures of the three different dilutions and it can be impossible to tell the difference between them. The only way to know for sure is testing unless you have the parents results that don’t leave you any other alternative.

[jvanrens]

@poltroon

It’s good to know he’s a QH, because that also influences the choice of what to test for.
If you’re thinking about him as a breeding stallion, I’d probably spring for the Full Color/Pattern panel. He’s pale so you might not see all the white, plus white can hide. It’s not that much more money than just the Coat Color panel which you already want to know.

You say the parents are buckskin and smoky black but unless they are tested to those colors, you might also have dun or pearl in there and not know it.

You forgot about Champagne! Pearl and Champagne are not terribly common in the QH though. That would be interesting to know too. The only chance of there being dun involved is if his dam is a dunskin or whoever’s registered he doesn’t know the difference. The site would have to be a smoky grillo to contribute dun and that would be obvious.

The only white pattern tha is a need to know IMHO is Frame (OLW) as crossing two of them can result in a foal (25% chance) that is not going to survive.

[JB]

@FaithView

also, so the father is a color tested Smokey black. So that would mean Ee or EE for the red gene, N/Cr for the creme gene, and aa for the Agouti.

Correct

Is there a huge difference between Ee and EE?

In terms of his color, zero difference. E? is black-based, no matter how you slice it

Im kinda imaging these the same way you would do Punnett squares, is that correct? So if the father was Ee and the mother was also Ee, it’s still possible for him to be a cremello with ee?

Yes, 25% chance ee, 25% chance EE, and 50% chance Ee

[JB]

The only other “color” thing to test for if he’s to be considered for breeding, is LWO/OLWS/Frame.

Everything else color-wise is just for fun.

And everything beyond that is the full 6-panel disease testing required for a QH stallion to produce QH-registerable foals.